Quick question regarding the number of sets

I wouldn't say that vanilla HST is necessarily wrong, just that the implementation will only work for newer folks. Judging by this site, it seems like most people coming to HST aren't terribly experienced. Bryan's example routine does have more volume than a typical "simplify and win" routine usually does and I think it could be high enough for people who aren't intermediates to get good results from. Depending on which sample routine you actually use, you've got around 20-30 reps for chest, 20-30 reps for back, etc during the 10s and 15s. Legs probably are underworked in that routine and obviously volume drops as you get into the 5s. The problem with the sample routine is that as strength grows, it gets difficult to move those kinds of loads around three times a week the more advanced a lifter gets.

I still prefer to have people new to HST run it fairly close to Bryan's initial routine at first, then start the changes after that. However, a seasoned lifter coming to HST I would most definitely start with an upper/lower split as the recommendation.
 
I was just reading the Wernbom paper, and had a few thoughts:

* The paper looked at studies for the quads and elbow flexors, so it's hard to say how much you can extrapolate the results to everything.
* Bryan's review linked earlier is pretty good, but it actually looks like the best results are seen at ~60%+ 1 RM, and the recommendations for heavier are "you are definitely growing about as much as possible here."
* Bryan's view of hypertrophy is still more robust, imo, in terms of the SD->rapidly escalating loading->strength limit->SD model.
* Despite the above, we should probably be honest that we don't actually know if HST is more "scientific" than any other program, as it's a routine that's extrapolated from research but has never, ever been tested head to head against any other training system.

I actually had some thoughts on what a default HST template should probably look like using the current model. I was considering making a thread about it, but I'll share them here.

The cycle should probably be heavier - with something like 75% of your 15 RM as the starting point (day 1 of the 15s) with a "normal" HST cycle, you're looking at loads a little under 50% 1 RM to start. Imo this is pretty clearly suboptimal. If you had to declare an optimal range as per the research, you might say ~60-85% 1 RM, which is something like a ~17-18 to ~5 RM. For what it's worth, I think keeping up reasonably high volumes towards the 5 RM end would become absolutely brutal, though you could do stuff like 7-10 sets of 3, I suppose. Still, I'm not sure I'd have the average trainee venture into this zone. You could probably keep up decent volume up to an ~8 RM or so, at a guess, which is ~80% of 1 RM. The fact that this tracks pretty well with conventional bodybuilding wisdom (the whole 8-12 thing) is kind of interesting. It's also worth noting that I think Dan actually ran Max-stim like this, something like 60-85% 5 RM using max stim reps for a total # of reps.

Well, if you look at the rest recommendations in the Wernbom paper, it doesn't seem to indicate there's much magic to short rest periods, per se. With something like Max-Stim or rest/pause, I think what's happening is that you get a slight amplification in the stimulus such that you get more out of less, as it were. For a practical routine, though, I don't think going down that route is entirely useful, and it leaves some awkward holes in programming for lifts like the squat and deadlift, which are pretty hard to do safely via rest/pause.

On the issue of frequency, as previously discussed, the effects seem to top out at ~twice per week when work-matched against thrice per week training. While Totentanz is right that heavier loads probably elicit slightly greater effect such that you could decrease the volume a bit over the course of a cycle, work-matching the volume across the cycle would pretty much guarantee you maintain the "hypertrophic signal strength" or some such concept as you keep raising the load. This is similar to the 1 set of 15s, 2 set of 10s, 3 set of 5s idea, and the idea is that if you ballpark the volume too low on the heavy end, the latter part of your HST cycle might wind up suboptimal for growth, and be more of a pure strength routine (lower volume, higher frequency, lower rep) at that point.

So, what are we left with?

* Cycles that go from something in the neighborhood of ~60-80% of 1 RM
* Twice per week per muscle group frequency (probably a 4 days per week upper/lower split, though you could technically divide this up however)
* Volume recommendations that scale to training age, something at least in the ballpark of Wernbom's recommendations (30 for upper, 60 for lower) being pretty good. I do agree with Totentanz that there's no reason to add volume too early, though, in that, if lower volumes induce growth, you're just wasting time with higher volumes. As such, it's almost definitely smarter to start on the conservative side and add volume for parts as needed rather than starting too high and needing to subtract.
* The usual SD logic, though I would suspect a deload of 1-2 days during the SD period would work just as well, and given the risks of strength loss in extended SD's for intermediate+ trainees, should probably be the default recommendation.

How I would put that together:

* Upper/lower Split.

Upper = 1 exercise each for chest (e.g. bench), shoulders (e.g. overhead press), lats (e.g. chins or pulldowns), midback/traps (e.g. row variation), biceps (e.g. curls), and triceps (e.g. lying triceps extensions). 6 total exercises.
Lower = 2 exercises each for anterior chain/quads (e.g. squats and leg press or leg extensions), posterior chain (e.g. RDL and leg curls), and calves (e.g. standing and seated calf raises). 6 total exercises.

If we ran conventional HST logic, we'd have two week blocks. This is probably an option, but with a narrower range of intensities, you're looking at a one month cycle, which might be on the low side. If you followed default HST guidelines of 6 sessions per block, you'd have a 6 week cycle to go from 60-80% 1 RM, or two, three-week blocks. Having experimented with this a bit (upper/lower splits with 3 week cycles), it works pretty well.

As for sets/reps, ~70% of 1 RM is about a 12 RM, and 80% of 1 RM is about an 8 RM. Starting at 60% 1 RM, I might do a 3 week block of 12's and follow it with a 3 week block of 8's. So block 1 (3 weeks) = 12s @ 60-70% 1 RM, and block 2 (3 weeks) = 8s @ 70-80% 1 RM. Instead of a number of sets, I'd just declare volume to be a total number of reps. 25 reps per exercise seems like a fair starting point. This would land you at 25 reps per upper body muscle group, and 50 total reps per lower body muscle group (since there are two exercises a piece for each).

The first set can act as your strength barometer (12 or 8 reps), and subsequent sets should probably be terminated when there's a decline in speed/jump in effort (so basically one standard set and then "clustering," though clustering with conventional/longer rest periods). At the beginning of the 12's, that might be 2 sets of 12 (within a rep at 24 total reps, that's fine). At the end of 12's, that might be something like 12 + 8 + 5 (3 sets). At the beginning of the 8's it might be 3 sets of 8, and at the end might be something like 8 + 6 + 6 + 5 (4 sets). The reason, then, I'd avoid that ~80-85% range by default is the practicality - as you approach a true 5 RM, you'd be at something like 5 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3, or 7 working sets, which is getting somewhat absurd to maintain that higher volume. Also potentially dangerous.

So yah, that's by no means definitive, but I think would jive better with the research and be about as close to optimal as we "know" from the research, which is admittedly limited.
 
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Very Well thought out, I agree with your programming ideas, might even run something like that for my next bulk cycle.
 
That is actually almost exactly what I have been planning for my next bulking cycle. Great minds. Only difference is that I plan to include negatives as an experiment since I haven't done real negatives in years. I will add in metabolic work during the negatives to keep volume up and do max stim on lifts that I can't do negatives on. Additionally, since arms are my worst bodypart, I'm splitting up the arm work between the upper and lower days so I'm getting more volume and more frequency for arms, just to see what happens.

I'm excited to see how it works and plan to run it for at least three different 6-8 week blocks before I make a decision on effectiveness. SD is something where I'm still considering what I plan to do exactly. I agree that extended time off is bad for strength. I'm considering tracking total workload meaning volume x load during the course of the cycle as well. I will, of course, be on a calorie surplus, tracking measurements, etc.
 
That is actually almost exactly what I have been planning for my next bulking cycle. Great minds. Only difference is that I plan to include negatives as an experiment since I haven't done real negatives in years. I will add in metabolic work during the negatives to keep volume up and do max stim on lifts that I can't do negatives on. Additionally, since arms are my worst bodypart, I'm splitting up the arm work between the upper and lower days so I'm getting more volume and more frequency for arms, just to see what happens.

I'm excited to see how it works and plan to run it for at least three different 6-8 week blocks before I make a decision on effectiveness. SD is something where I'm still considering what I plan to do exactly. I agree that extended time off is bad for strength. I'm considering tracking total workload meaning volume x load during the course of the cycle as well. I will, of course, be on a calorie surplus, tracking measurements, etc.

Very cool. As another thought, since you're ending with ~8 RM's, it's pretty easy to add an explicit strength block right after an HST cycle like this. E.g. work up to ~5 RM's in a manner you see fit as a final block. Do you have the Wernbom paper, btw? He covers some stuff on eccentrics, and they actually do look pretty promising for growth.

As for SD, it's hard to know what to do for sure. Honestly, the Friday --> week from Monday (i.e. ~9-10 days off) works pretty well for not completely ****ing yourself up strength-wise, and if a person has no idea how SD impacts their strength, it's probably a good place to start, as it might be a non-issue. For people who seem to suffer a marked strength loss (I tend to rapidly detrain), I think a simple solution is to have a deload day or two which A) attempts to minimize the hypertrophic effect (to keep the tissue as deconditioned as possible) but B) maintain the neurological/strength aspect. This would be something very low volume but still decently heavy. One solution that occurred to me is that you could simply single up to ~85% RM (i.e. single up to the 5 RM you establish after the base cycle, if you go that route) or so on the heaviest lifts only (e.g. squat, deadlift, bench, and chins). This would be trivially easy even on the worst of days, but would still preserve the "used to heavy weights" feeling into the next cycle. If you did this in a single day, it'd probably be halfway into the SD (e.g. ~5 days in), so if you finished on a Friday, you'd do this modified SD day on the following Wednesday, and then a new cycle would begin the Monday after that.
 
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I actually was toying with the idea of an extended block of 5s to get strength up at the end of the cycle before sd/deload or possibly as a bridge between cycles, skipping SD altogether. It mostly will depend on how I feel after eccentrics. As of now, I plan to do 3 weeks of 12s, 3 weeks of 8s, then most likely 2, possibly 3 weeks of eccentrics using 3 RM loads I can implement negatives on, while using a 5 RM range for whatever lifts I'm doing max-stim. I haven't done negatives in so long that I'm not sure how I will be sitting energy/motivation-wise. If I'm still feeling good, I'd like to do an additional 2-3 week block for 5s before transitioning into the next cycle or taking an SD. I'll hammer out the details for sure within the next couple weeks, planning to start the cycle officially on Sept 30th, so I'll log progress although I doubt I'll log each workout.

Regarding SD, I have thought for a long time now that 9 days is absolutely the longest that people should be taking time off in normal situations and is what I always recommend for people taking a non-forced SD. Obviously time off due to injury, etc is a different matter. Your idea of a low volume heavy day during SD is interesting. You would think if the volume is too low to get a growth response that it should not interfere with deconditioning to an appreciable degree, yet should keep the CNS from getting stale.

I no longer have a copy of the Wernbom paper, if you feel like forwarding me a copy, that would be awesome: totentanz @ gmail
 
It seems like we still don't know what the minimum amount of volume required is. Wernbom tells us what is likely the ideal amount of volume but even then, what intensity level is that supposed to be at? Bryan seems to be suggesting in the article that it is primarily for the 8-12 rep range, which would make sense. You're talking around 3 sets for upper body, 3-5 sets for lower body with overlapping exercises, that seems totally reasonable.
However... I still believe that heavier loads likely require less total volume to cause growth. Perhaps with a 5 RM load, the threshold might only be 20 reps? Who knows.

From memory, the Wernbom recommendations of 30-60 reps per bout were based on 8-12RM (65-80% of 1RM) and that it was a sliding scale as load increased. So lighter loads required the higher end of 60 reps and heavier loads required the lower end of 30 reps. It also stated significant growth was seen with 15 total reps @ 90%RM. Makes sense that as the load increases volume decreases.

Edit: worth mentioning that 1 set did see some adaption just not optimal and Wernbom also suggested evidence that advanced may benefit from up to 10 sets per bodypart (might of been Rhea's study).
 
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I agree with these points, especially since we are talking about experienced lifters and not newbies. But, then basically aren't we all agreeing that "HST" as originally laid out by Bryan is basically faulty? I mean, it seems we are all agreeing at this point (including Bryan himself, based on his latest articles) that the best way to train is to not to do 3x/week vanilla HST, but rather to do some sort of split, drop frequency to twice/week, and increase volume? It seems you, Brtan, Totentanz, Wernbom, we are all agreeing that the latest scientific insights demonstrate that " vanilla HST " is wrong, and the " neo-HST " would be a twice/week upper/lower split, higher volume, less frequent SD periods.... Basically Lyle McDonald's bulking program, it seems Lyle was right all along... ;)

Well Bryan has always said (at least on the forum although not in the original articles) that volume needs to increase as you become more advanced. Also, that you should do as much volume as you can handle without injury/overtraining. Hence, why guys like Boris, Millard, Borge etc ran an upper/lower split 6 days a week. I think Bryan changed his views very early on about one set being enough but those original quotes still hang around.
 
Very interesting thread. It seems I may have to reconsider my plans for the near future. Upper/lower twice a week should help, at least me, get more volume done for my legs.

Ive started an Sd today until next monday ie 10 days. I may go in on wednesday and do some heavy weight/low volume work. Ive already been doing 12, 8 then 4 so Ill keep that unchanged.

Im just wondering how to incorporate deads into that set up. I really dont want to squat and deadlift in the same session/day.
 
Squat once a week and deadlift once a week. Use overlapping exercises to get the volume up. I woud pair deadlifts with leg curls, leg press and leg extensions. Squats I would pair with leg extensions, romanian deads and leg curls.
 
Squat once a week and deadlift once a week. Use overlapping exercises to get the volume up. I woud pair deadlifts with leg curls, leg press and leg extensions. Squats I would pair with leg extensions, romanian deads and leg curls.

It's funny, I was just looking at this.

You could certainly squat twice a week and deadlift once, though deadlifts would almost definitely suffer.

The easier way is probably the above, e.g. squat + rdl one day, and deadlift + leg press the other day. In terms of %'s, you'd just have 3 sessions per block per lift. So 12's for weeks 1-3 would be @ 60, 65, and 70%. 8's for weeks 4-6 would be @ 70, 75, and 80%. Also as above, you could keep leg extensions, leg curls, and a couple calf raises constant between days since they're all isolation-y exercises.

edit: note also you could do this with all your upper body lifts, too, for more variety. E.g. have a day of something like incline bench + chins + standing presses + barbell rows + barbell curls + lying triceps extensions, and another of flat bench + pulldowns + seated presses + cable rows + seated dumbbell or machine curls + triceps pushdowns.
 
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That's actually the way I'm setting it up, alternating lifts for variety so that each lift only gets done three times a block with the exception of leg exts, leg curls and calves which will be getting done six times a block.
 
This thread has been a great think-tank. Some good material here for the HST book... Perhaps an "advanced HST program" coming together nicely in this thread.
 
That's actually the way I'm setting it up, alternating lifts for variety so that each lift only gets done three times a block with the exception of leg exts, leg curls and calves which will be getting done six times a block.

Just out of curiosity, what are you doing about deadlifting volume?

Deadlifts from the floor, in my mind, are the one awkward lift to program like this due to the slightly ambitious volume goals. My past experience is that deadlifts actually respond pretty well to one hard set once a week. I've done more volume (e.g. 3 sets of 8 across), but it almost always tanks my top end strength like this.

In my mind, one option would be the obvious, just build up deadlift tolerance such that you can still aim for a higher number of total reps. Another would be either the one hard set rule above (my preference) or at least a reduced total volume, and then maybe make up the volume with something else? The lower back is really the weak link in a deadlifts, so getting too ambitious in volume is definitely playing with fire imo.

Anyways, just curious on your thoughts on the issue.
 
Here is my plan(first draft)

Lower A:

Deads
Legpress
Leg ext
Leg curl.
Stand calf

Lower B:

Squats
RDL
Leg ext
Leg curl
Seated calf

Upper A:

Chins
Military
Incline DB press
Dips

Upper B:

Seated rows
Machine shoulder press
Fly machine
Skullcrushers

Ive chosen the machine for shoulders allowing Me to load up a bit and flies to hit the pecs more. One calf exercise has shown to be enough for me to grow that group adequately. Im obviously Open to suggestions regarding choice of exercises.

The 12's will be two sets. The 8's will be three, until it gets too heavy and takes ages to complete all reps. The 4's will obviously be less again. The first set will be the marker for strength and the remainder will be clustered where need be.
 
Just out of curiosity, what are you doing about deadlifting volume?

Deadlifts from the floor, in my mind, are the one awkward lift to program like this due to the slightly ambitious volume goals. My past experience is that deadlifts actually respond pretty well to one hard set once a week. I've done more volume (e.g. 3 sets of 8 across), but it almost always tanks my top end strength like this.

In my mind, one option would be the obvious, just build up deadlift tolerance such that you can still aim for a higher number of total reps. Another would be either the one hard set rule above (my preference) or at least a reduced total volume, and then maybe make up the volume with something else? The lower back is really the weak link in a deadlifts, so getting too ambitious in volume is definitely playing with fire imo.

Anyways, just curious on your thoughts on the issue.

I can't seem to build up a tolerance to do higher volume sets across with deads, everytime I try ends up with me getting sick after a few weeks from my immune system tanking. Not sure why higher deadlift volume seems to effect me so much since I can do higher volume on squats and this doesn't happen.

I typically will set up my deads as 1-3 sets and aim for 5 reps regardless of load and just progress the load upward. I go on feel on a per session basis to decide whether to do more than one top set on a particular day and if I don't get a full 5 reps on subsequent sets, I don't push it. I don't think deads need a whole lot of volume and provided you have overlap with other lifts to cover volume, it seems like keeping deadlift volume lower is better idea since it is one of the most taxing lifts you can perform.
The only other alternative for me if I want to use higher volume with them is to cluster reps and also to alternate each week between deads from the floor and rack pulls, or sometimes I will alternate with deads from the top, from the floor and possibly rack pulls. This obviously tightens up progression a lot since you only get one shot every two to three weeks to do full deadlifts. When I do something along these lines, I shoot for 15 total reps for each lift and just get as close to 15 as I can in whatever way I can. That usually starts as sets of 3 and ends with singles to get to 15. When I do it this way, I am able to keep progressing for longer.

I'm not entirely sure I want to do deads this cycle, I might just do squats, rdls, leg ext, leg curl one day then leg press, rdls, leg ext, leg curl the second day. But if I do deadlift, I'm planning to just do deadlifts from the floor each week this time and just pyramid up to a top set of 5-8 reps. I can probably get a couple sets near the beginning of the cycle but toward the end, I'm sure I will only be doing one top set. The problem is that it takes so many warmup sets for deads, which are taxing and also very time consuming. I may have to look at my current warmup for deads and reevaluate because right now, adding in deads to a day makes my workout take at least 20-30 minutes longer than if I do a different lift.
 
Here is my plan(first draft)

Lower A:

Deads
Legpress
Leg ext
Leg curl.
Stand calf

Lower B:

Squats
RDL
Leg ext
Leg curl
Seated calf

Upper A:

Chins
Military
Incline DB press
Dips

Upper B:

Seated rows
Machine shoulder press
Fly machine
Skullcrushers

Ive chosen the machine for shoulders allowing Me to load up a bit and flies to hit the pecs more. One calf exercise has shown to be enough for me to grow that group adequately. Im obviously Open to suggestions regarding choice of exercises.

The 12's will be two sets. The 8's will be three, until it gets too heavy and takes ages to complete all reps. The 4's will obviously be less again. The first set will be the marker for strength and the remainder will be clustered where need be.


Looks like a good plan. I personally plan to do a rowing and a chinning type movement both upper days, I think that would probably be better for overall back development. How many total reps are you planning to do for calves?
 
Ive been doing 1 set for 12's and 8's and 2 sometimes 3 for the 4's. I might double the 12's and 8's and do 4 för the 4's.
 
I can't seem to build up a tolerance to do higher volume sets across with deads, everytime I try ends up with me getting sick after a few weeks from my immune system tanking. Not sure why higher deadlift volume seems to effect me so much since I can do higher volume on squats and this doesn't happen.

I typically will set up my deads as 1-3 sets and aim for 5 reps regardless of load and just progress the load upward. I go on feel on a per session basis to decide whether to do more than one top set on a particular day and if I don't get a full 5 reps on subsequent sets, I don't push it. I don't think deads need a whole lot of volume and provided you have overlap with other lifts to cover volume, it seems like keeping deadlift volume lower is better idea since it is one of the most taxing lifts you can perform.
The only other alternative for me if I want to use higher volume with them is to cluster reps and also to alternate each week between deads from the floor and rack pulls, or sometimes I will alternate with deads from the top, from the floor and possibly rack pulls. This obviously tightens up progression a lot since you only get one shot every two to three weeks to do full deadlifts. When I do something along these lines, I shoot for 15 total reps for each lift and just get as close to 15 as I can in whatever way I can. That usually starts as sets of 3 and ends with singles to get to 15. When I do it this way, I am able to keep progressing for longer.

I'm not entirely sure I want to do deads this cycle, I might just do squats, rdls, leg ext, leg curl one day then leg press, rdls, leg ext, leg curl the second day. But if I do deadlift, I'm planning to just do deadlifts from the floor each week this time and just pyramid up to a top set of 5-8 reps. I can probably get a couple sets near the beginning of the cycle but toward the end, I'm sure I will only be doing one top set. The problem is that it takes so many warmup sets for deads, which are taxing and also very time consuming. I may have to look at my current warmup for deads and reevaluate because right now, adding in deads to a day makes my workout take at least 20-30 minutes longer than if I do a different lift.

Yah, I think there's something unique about the deadlift in this respect. While higher volumes can technically be tolerated, you have to take so much weight off the bar that I think you wind up jeopardizing the top end loading enormously. As such, I think the long and short of it is that deadlifts from the floor simply need their own programming, probably one top set. One idea I had was to do some unweighted back extensions or something after that one top set, just to get the total reps higher and pump some blood in the area for additional metabolic magic.
 
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