Quick question regarding the number of sets

Deadlifts aren't really necessary for HST IMO. I've been doing Romanian deads at higher volume, as they seem much better for hypertrophy (because higher volume and frequency can be used) and still adequately stimulate the entire posterior chain quite well, (traps, erectors, hamstrings) without the excessive CNS drain that heavy deads involve.

Also I'm not worried at all about losing Deadlift strength, as between RDLs and Leg Press, all of the deadlift muscles are getting plenty of heavy work. I'm pretty sure I could pull just as much off the floor. RDLs done heavy enough really keep the erectors and hamstrings powerful.
 
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I have always tried to do the least volume per muscle group that makes me grow. The only way to find that amount is to experiment. And it will change over time. For me, today, that seems to be 30 or so reps for everything except lats and legs which need 60 reps per workout and working out 3 times per week, which usually means I have to do a split or even a double split to keep my workouts to about 40 minutes each. That seems to be in line with recent studies, for whatever that is worth. However, sticking to compounds and not isolations will lower the total number of exercises and, hence, sets, required to reach that volume quicker per muscle group. For example, chins work the lats and other upper back muscles, biceps, wrists, forearms, et al. Adding lots of curls would likely be counter productive.

However, more importantly, I have found that, as I age, I really need more frequent SD's, probably more from mental-type fatigue rather than physical-type fatigue. I just finished several 4 week cycles followed by an SD (1 week of 15's, 1 week of 10's and 2 weeks of 5's). I actually found that I typically came up with a lame excuse not to complete the 4th week in its entirety, typically skipping the third workout that week. For the next 2 cycles, primarily because of planned vacations, etc., I am going to do 3 weeks cycles of 1 week of 10's and 2 weeks of 5's with a 9 day SD in between. I may stick with that or go back to 4 week cycles after that or alternate them so I get the 15's in every other cycle. It depends on my calendar and how I feel physically and mentally then. I always do SD's of at least 9 days duration and up to 14 when I have been on 6 week or longer cycles. Recuperation is typically under rated and oft ignored and may be one of the biggest factors in failures to grow.

Frequency, rather than volume per workout, seems to be more important for my body at my age. When I was in my teens and 20's, working out 3 times per week was great, during my 30's-50's I worked out Weider style doing each body part once per week with very little improvement. Going back to 3 times per week with HST really improved my results significantly. I have not given twice per week a fair enough trial to really voice a personal opinion on it that would be meaningful.

O&G :cool:
 
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This thread has really got me thinking again about the importance of volume. I've had a copy of the complete Wernbom study for awhile now, and the volume recommendations are much higher than my typical training program. Also, in my mind is the much higher volume used by most pro bodybuilders, both natural and assisted.
Another factor in my mind regarding the importance of volume to hypertrophy is my own anecdotal evidence. About 6 years ago, I tried a powerlifting program called "Korte's Program". One of the main features of his program is doing 5 sets of 5 reps for BOTH squats and deadlifts at sub maximal loading at a fairly high frequency. (50 total reps for thighs each session, 3 sessions per week) What I remember most about the program, is that it was exhausting to my lower body, and coincidentally my thighs grew a tremendous amount is a short time! Now some of that growth was obviously sarcoplasmic, since the program required large glycogen storage in my thighs, but I can't help but recall the rapid hypertrophy that occurred in my thighs following that high volume program.
Now after re-reading the Wernbom meta-analysis, along with my past experience of high volume, has really got me convinced to go with a higher volumen program for my next cycle. I think I have been training sub optimally by restricting volume for a longtime now. I am definitely going to try it for several months and see for myself what higher volume training can really do...
 
Deadlifts aren't really necessary for HST IMO. I've been doing Romanian deads at higher volume, as they seem much better for hypertrophy (because higher volume and frequency can be used) and still adequately stimulate the entire posterior chain quite well, (traps, erectors, hamstrings) without the excessive CNS drain that heavy deads involve.

Also I'm not worried at all about losing Deadlift strength, as between RDLs and Leg Press, all of the deadlift muscles are getting plenty of heavy work. I'm pretty sure I could pull just as much off the floor. RDLs done heavy enough really keep the erectors and hamstrings powerful.

I actually agree that RDL's are the superior choice for hypertrophy, but two things:

1) I really like deadlifts from the floor. I just do, man.

2) RDL's were one of the primary exercises which irritated my sciatic problem, so I'm reluctant to go back to them.

Even with RDL's, though, I do think you have to be careful, and I'm not sure they're as viable with higher volumes as something like the squat.
 
I think I´ll just do one working set of deads as per before but I may add an extra set of good mornings or similar with lighter weight then do legpress. Should be a good mix of working the posterior chain as well as the entire thigh.
 
There is a lot of good info here but if anyone is interested I still have a lot of questions:

1. Tote mentioned that as weight goes up volume (in general should go down), do we know of any numeric relations? If I am at 75% of my 5rm it seems I should do less volume than 75% of my 15rm, is this a sliding scale?

2. If we move exercises to twice a week how are we hitting a muscle every 36-48hrs?

3. It seems big compound movements can fatigue the CNS (Deads) so how do I build up my CNS? Or is the natural progression of HST to go from compound to isolation as one gains mass, if so when do I begin transitioning?

4. What is deloading and why can it be used in place of SD? How does it combat RBE?

In the HST FAQ there is an explanation of the basics which reads as follows:
• The number of Reps is determined by the minimum effective load (this changes over time based on Conditioning)
• The number of Sets is determined by the minimum effective volume (this changes over time according to current load and Conditioning.)
• The Rest between sets is determined by the amount of time required to regain sufficient strength to successfully achieve the minimum effective Volume.
• The Frequency (rest between workouts) is determined by the ability of the CNS to recover sufficiently to maintain baseline “health” indicators. It is also determined by the time course of genetic expression resultant from the previous workout.
• The interval of Strategic Deconditioning (SD) is determined by the time course of adaptation to the individuals maximum weight loads. In other words, SD is required to reset growth potential after plateauing. The duration of SD is determined by the level of conditioning attained during the training cycle.

5. Regarding volume, the paper that keeps being cited is saying between 30-60 reps while HST refrains from a number and uses some other definitions, so how can I personally define; "Minimum effective load", "Minimum effective volume" and my current level of "Conditioning"?
 
Quite a few questions there. I can at least give my opinion.

1. If youre doing 2 sets on the 15´s, thats 30 reps. But once you get the the 5´s you need to do 6 sets to keep volume the same. 6 sets at that load is going to burn you out. Thereby volume needs to be reduced. There is no sliding scale as everyone handles workload differently.

2. You´re not. Its like a happy medium, a middle ground. Instead of hitting every 36-48 you´re able to do a greater workload at each session and at least still hitting each muscle twice a week.

3.There is no transition really. Compound movements should still be used predominantly. I do believe you can train your cns but as far as Im aware its a different type of training, more a strength based training.

4.Deloading is just either using lighter weights, so muscles are not lifting a heavy enough load to cause a response but still heavy enough so that not too much strength is lost. (When I was cutting I just did an 8rep cycle then a 4rep one. No SD so in effect I was deloading every 4 weeks.)

5. The minimum values are different for everyone. If youre still getting stronger each cycle with x amount of sets, for example and you further reduce and start to find youre not gaining strength or even losing strength then x is the minimum amount. Youre current level of conditioning is how many reps you can do at each given load.

I know my answers are minimal and you´ll get more info from tote and co but at least its a starting point.
 
Apparently I was typing this response as gbg was posting. If I had known that, I probably would not have answered as I generally agree with him with some minor clarifications.

Good questions Ad.

1. I will let Totz reply to that since he is referenced.

2. You aren't. That is why I train at least 3 times per week or, when I can, every other day. I believe cumulative weekly volume to be more important than daily volume as long as you hit the minimum thresh hold. That said, my minimum for chest and shoulders is 30 sets/day and lats and legs about 50-60/day. Arms don't count as they get worked enough with compounds but once in a while I will add a bicep or tricep isolation just to make them feel puffed up. I do not personally believe the twice per week workout to be sound as it is counter to science but I have never experimented with it long enough to really have any significant knowledge about it.

3. There is no, and should be no, natural progression from compounds to isolations. Iso's are, in my opinion a waste of time and do nothing more than create imbalances that cause future joint and soft tissue problems. Your CNS will build tolerance and recoverability over time. Learn to spot the signs of over training and avoid them like the plague.

4. In my opinion, deloading cannot take the place of SD. Perhaps it is related to my age but I really need a total SD. Besides, deloading can sometimes get you below the minimum effective weight for growth so why do it at all unless you simply want to burn calories? The natural tendency for many lifters who lack absolute discipline when using deloading is to increase the number of reps to get a "burn" which defeats the purpose of what you are trying to accomplish. Resting (SD) and reloading is far superior, at least for me.

5. Minimum effective load has been proven many times to be about 65% of one's 1 RM.

Minimum effective volume is very subjective and very personal. No one can tell you what that amount is for your body. Experiment with different volumes and try and determine which seems to give you the best results. Start out with, for example, 15/30 and work up to 30/60. It likely will be somewhere between those numbers. Condition is determined by the degree of soreness, if any, fat levels, how you feel, how you look vs your goal, etc., etc. You decide.

Sorry if the answers seem a bit evasive but, quite frankly, I know of no magic formula to get everything right the first, or even last, time. Experiment, experiment, experiment. I have rarely, if ever, done the same workout more than two cycles in a row.
 
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I start a new cycle on Monday and Im going to give the two-times-a-week method a go for one full cycle. Im not sure if its any better but I do like the idea of the higher volume each workout. I have an awful lot of trouble trying to do several sets for each exercise for the full body. Im unable to split my workouts between am and pm.
 
Can you split between days such as M/T, W/TH, F/Sat or just do one shorter full body workout on Fri if you do not want to screw up the weekend? I am not trying to dissuade you from trying twice per week, just offering alternatives to an AM/PM split.

Also, just doing one cycle of twice/week may not be enough to make an informed judgement. Consider two or three cycles to give it a fair shot unless you actually go backwards on twice/week. Dan Moore, with his Max Stim was a big proponent of twice per week.
 
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There is a lot of good info here but if anyone is interested I still have a lot of questions:

1. Tote mentioned that as weight goes up volume (in general should go down), do we know of any numeric relations? If I am at 75% of my 5rm it seems I should do less volume than 75% of my 15rm, is this a sliding scale?

Unfortunately, we still don't know enough in this area to be really sure of anything. At this point, I would recommend starting around 25-30 total reps in the earlier part of the cycle and by the heavier part of the 5s, be shooting for 15-20 total reps for each muscle group. Keep in mind that I said per muscle group, not per lift. This would equate to 3x15, 2-3x10 and 3-4x5 which should be manageable volume for anyone. Obviously overlapping exercises would alter the number of sets you would need. Example squats and leg ext, you would do perhaps 3x5 and then 1 or 2 sets of 5 with leg extensions.

2. If we move exercises to twice a week how are we hitting a muscle every 36-48hrs?

Evidence suggests that hitting a muscle twice in a week is similar in effect to three times a week. Remember that there are other growth indicators aside from just elevated protein synthesis and anyway, the often quoted figures of a 24 hour peak in protein synthesis and drop off to baseline at 36 hours doesn't actually apply to people with more training experience. It seems, according to evidence, that the more highly trained you are, the shorter the window of elevated protein synthesis. I wouldn't get too hung up on the 48 hour figure. With twice a week training, you are still applying chronic stimuli to the muscles which satisfies that part of the HST principles.

3. It seems big compound movements can fatigue the CNS (Deads) so how do I build up my CNS? Or is the natural progression of HST to go from compound to isolation as one gains mass, if so when do I begin transitioning?

The problem with transitioning to isolations is that it takes more of them to cover all your bases, which means that you end up doing more exercises overall since there is less overlap, so you will likely experience more fatigue. Also, single joint exercises aren't always the best for your joints. Sticking with compounds actually helps you manage your fatigue better because they are more efficient and have more overlap, thus you don't need as many different lifts to hit everything.

The solution to avoid CNS fatigue from heavy compounds, which really is only a concern with deads and to a lesser extent, squats, is to reduce frequency of that lift. This is also where alternating exercises comes into play. It is also important to keep in mind that some degree of fatigue build up is ok. If you did deadlifts twice a week for only six weeks, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, especially if your 1 RM is still less than twice your bodyweight, in which case it should be less taxing.

4. What is deloading and why can it be used in place of SD? How does it combat RBE?

I'm not convinced that strictly deloading is equivalent to an SD yet for stimulating new growth once progress has stopped.
I think what Mikey is proposing, a single day of lifting with a heavyish load, isn't really a deload and still basically counts as an SD. You should still be deconditioning adequately, in my opinion, by following his guidelines for that. Regardless, I will be testing out his idea on my upcoming cycles over the course of this winter and I will report back on how it works.
I would recommend sticking with SD although I do not think you need to do a mandatory SD every six-eight weeks or anything. As Bryan has often said, you only need to SD when growth and progress have stopped. If you are simply getting bored or tired of a cycle but are still progressing, you could just reset back to the 10s or something and that would basically be similar to a deload. I just don't think, at this point in time, that a deload will allow you to get as much new growth as SD would. I might change my opinion on this in the future.
 
Can you split between days such as M/T, W/TH, F/Sat or just do one shorter full body workout on Fri if you do not want to screw up the weekend? I am not trying to dissuade you from trying twice per week, just offering alternatives to an AM/PM split.

Also, just doing one cycle of twice/week may not be enough to make an informed judgement. Consider two or three cycles to give it a fair shot unless you actually go backwards on twice/week. Dan Moore, with his Max Stim was a big proponent of twice per week.

Ill first need to see that it works practically. I plan on bulking för two more cycles so I should know more by the end of them. The six days a week wont work. If this doesnt work or suit me Ill change back to the standard set up.
 
Hi! regarding the template posted here with 3 weeks of 12s and 3 weeks of 8s, How would be the increments? Because going from 60 to 70% in three weeks, 2xweek means 2% jumps that seems too small for me. I've read that bryan said that the increments must be big enough. If you use a workout A and workout B then they colud be 5% increments.
 
Hi! regarding the template posted here with 3 weeks of 12s and 3 weeks of 8s, How would be the increments? Because going from 60 to 70% in three weeks, 2xweek means 2% jumps that seems too small for me. I've read that bryan said that the increments must be big enough. If you use a workout A and workout B then they colud be 5% increments.

If you used the same set of exercises, it'd be 2% increments to go from 60-70% or 70-80% over the course of 3 weeks. The A/B would be 5% increments, as you said.

I kind of disagree about the increment thing. I mean, Brian pointed out that a given load could have hypertrophic value for up to a couple/few weeks, and that's a static load. You're telling me going from, say, your ~12 RM to ~8 RM in 3 weeks isn't fast enough to elicit a hypertrophic effect?

As a sidenote, I know I said it before, but for anybody coming into HST as relative novices, I'd strongly recommend a linear progression type routine (Starting Strength, Greyskull LP) until A) your form is cemented in all the basic, barbell lifts and B) you have exhausted your linear gains and learned to eat appropriately. Imo, HST is, at minimum, an intermediate type routine.
 
Thank you. I'll try it. My biggest concerns about HST was going too heavy (5 reps) with certain exercises and starting too light in the first weeks. With your template both problems are fixed and I can alternate between 5/3/1 for strength and HST for mass. Thank you again!
 
Thank you. I'll try it. My biggest concerns about HST was going too heavy (5 reps) with certain exercises and starting too light in the first weeks. With your template both problems are fixed and I can alternate between 5/3/1 for strength and HST for mass. Thank you again!

No problem. Bear in mind these are just experimental routines, at the moment, time will tell how they stack up against "default" HST routines.

As a suggestion, while the total # of reps method is probably a little more "scientific" or whatever, I'd just do 2 sets for 12's and 3 sets for 8's, to start. This will probably make things easier. Total reps would probably be something like ~24 - 18 or so, which is pretty reasonable. Just remember the rule that your first set is the one in which you try for the prescribed # of reps. The second (or third) sets stop when things start to grind/get hard (i.e. a rep or two to spare). If you can do 2 sets of 12 or 3 sets of 8 like that (probably can at the start of each cycle), that's cool. But by the end of each block, you might well be doing a set of 12 and a set of 7-8, or a set of 8 and 2 more sets of 5 or something.
 
I think for my current cycle with week 7 (3rd week of 5s) I will be dropping to 1 set. My joints are starting to be too achy too often. 8th week do my new RMs and then happily take my SD.
 
If your joints are aching now, why continue for another two weeks? You are risking bigger future problems.
 
Well maybe I am an idiot...but here's what I am thinking. I've been really improving my ROM in my hips, knees and ankles through stretching and foam rolling. When I first started my best impression of touching my toes was mid-shin. Throughout this cycle I've really worked with it and I can touch my toes at the end of my stretching post workout.

As far as achiness, while I work out and while I am going about life I feel fine. Sitting in an office for 8 hours my legs get stiff and achy. So I have been trying to stretch and take little walks during the day which helps. So in part I feel some of it is just normal workout soreness/strain and in the other part I think its my body fighting against being more generally limber and learning to move with a better ROM. Even though it isn't bad i don't want it to persist for too long before I give it a break, so I am hoping the happy balance between forcing my body to be more limber and giving it the rest it will need is meets at my SD.

If this sounds retarded I welcome your input.
 
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