Rethinking Hst

Well naturally that's what he's going to come around to thinking, because that's how the body works. It's just like when he kept looking for the holy grail of dieting but then ended up just dieting the old fashioned way of cutting calories.
 
Losing body matter is always the result of eating less than you spend, even in my imaginary world. You have to provide enough circumstances for the body to dig into its fat stores.

By "load" I meant increasing its absolute value up to the required level, not the tricks involving SD and submaximal run-ups.
The guy on the pic in the first post could develop his physique with 80-100 kg high volume+short rest period squats/rows, rarely going up to 120kg in lower volume, but not beyond. So some amount of load is required for continuous progress, but not more.
 
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adpowah said:
You would not be really happy if you were wrong. But maybe I am wrong so I will sum up my argument in a single sentence which you failed to address: You will not fully adapt to a load or exceed it's stimulus after lifting it once, therefore for a time previous loads continue to offer a growth stimulus that will allow you to exceed your current state.
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Sorry, mate, if we compare this opinion & wishful thinking with real graphs, we see that at least 3 week long SD+resumption of training doesn't grow new muscle. Only if you lift bigger loads, will your muscle have opportunity to grow. So most of SD+previous loads look like wasted time and effort, because you could just go on with the heaviest loads after just 2 weeks, not 5-6. And there just isn't enough opportunity to grow very strong with HST's 2 week long 5's.
 
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HST_Rihad said:
Sorry, mate, if we compare this opinion & wishful thinking with real graphs, we see that at least 3 week long SD+resumption of training doesn't grow new muscle. Only if you lift bigger loads, will your muscle have opportunity to grow. So most of SD+previous loads look like wasted time and effort, because you could just go on with the heaviest loads after just 2 weeks, not 5-6. And there just isn't enough opportunity to grow very strong with HST's 2 week long 5's.
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But Bryan doesn't recommend 3 weeks of SD, just 9 days so the graph you are referring to has no real relevance to HST in the format laid out originally. Also that study showed no difference in strength or size between the 2 groups despite the continuous group training for 24 weeks v the SD group only training for 18 weeks, no doubt if they had used 9 days SD the SD group would have pulled ahead of the continuous group but we will never really know until someone actually trials HST.
 
mickc1965 said:
But Bryan doesn't recommend 3 weeks of SD, just 9 days so the graph you are referring to has no real relevance to HST in the format laid out originally. Also that study showed no difference in strength or size between the 2 groups despite the continuous group training for 24 weeks v the SD group only training for 18 weeks, no doubt if they had used 9 days SD the SD group would have pulled ahead of the continuous group but we will never really know until someone actually trials HST.
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Intuitively, smaller SD would have shown smaller (if any) muscle loss and subsequent recovery at a smaller rate, never surpassing the continuous group's rate, unless the muscle indeed got very much stronger suddenly, which is unlikely given the rate of growth during 5's, rarely exceeding 5-10 pounds (depending on the muscle group), and that if you're particularly lucky.
 
Here's an opinion of a guy with lousy genetics who managed to put on 43 pounds of muscle.
The secret to gaining muscle is to get stronger.
Read more: http://stronglifts.com/how-to-build-muscle-mass-guide/

I feel really sorry I spent so much time spinning my wheels with HST, doing "previous loads" 70% of the time, including SD. No, I'm not blaming it, it was only my fault that the simple fact took me so long to realize. My word of advice to newer guys: on your first cycles, don't do the week of 5's, simply extend 10s for as long as you're progressing. Do what everyone else should be doing. Take 2 weeks with no strength gains as a sign that it's time to deload to 75% of 10RM and ramp back up. Do this for as long as it will take you to get past the intermediate level for your bodyweight as per these standards. Then you can start thinking of incorporating 5's/negs and start using SD.
 
How does that guy know he has lousy genetics? Has he gotten genetic testing done?

Tons of people say they have lousy genetics when it turns out they just have lousy willpower. I always thought I had bad genetics for muscle building and strength until I got genetic testing done. This is just like people who say they must have low test levels or similar without having any actual data to back that up.
 
Well I guess that means we won't be seeing Rihad here anymore since he won't be wasting time with HST. RIP Rihad. :D
 
Nah, I *will* be wasting time with HST, only no more SD+deloads this often. Because the "SD+previous loads" concept simply doesn't work, at least not for natural newbies and intermediates, period. What I will be doing is extending 5's 3 times per week for as long as I'm progressing, sprinkling 2 week long de-loads here and there to allow for some recovery of joints, CNS, etc. Say instead of finishing 2 weeks of 5s/negs with SD, I will simply deload getting back to the loads in 2 weeks, and do them for 1 week. Then start over: 2 weeks de-load, 1 week max work. So it will basically be 3 week long cycles. You can call it zig-zagging, I don't care, increasing loads is what works, and previous loads seem to be useful only for recovering lost muscle (and you'd be weaker in that case anyway), not new muscle growth. Sorry, folks.
 
Well if you are not going to follow the HST format why not try BBB as recommended by Bulldog? Worth a go or are you following lyles generic bulk?
 
@mick1965, I don't like doing several sets per exercise with fixed rest, which is too boring, preferring to do just one heavy set. I will simply be extending 5's with 1 set per exercise, as usual. It's more resemblant of madcow's 5x5, with just one set, and more exercises.

Farewell, previous loads. I will only be using them for what they are good for: recovery. Adding 5lb per major exercise every 7-9 weeks may be suitable for uber-advanced guys. It's simply wasted time & effort for newbies & intermediates, they can grow much much faster concentrating on max loads (deloading where necessary). Ironically, HST shoot itself in the head.
 
HST_Rihad said:
Nah, I *will* be wasting time with HST, only no more SD+deloads this often. Because the "SD+previous loads" concept simply doesn't work, at least not for natural newbies and intermediates, period. What I will be doing is extending 5's 3 times per week for as long as I'm progressing, sprinkling 2 week long de-loads here and there to allow for some recovery of joints, CNS, etc. Say instead of finishing 2 weeks of 5s/negs with SD, I will simply deload getting back to the loads in 2 weeks, and do them for 1 week. Then start over: 2 weeks de-load, 1 week max work. So it will basically be 3 week long cycles. You can call it zig-zagging, I don't care, increasing loads is what works, and previous loads seem to be useful only for recovering lost muscle (and you'd be weaker in that case anyway), not new muscle growth. Sorry, folks.
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HST_Rihad said:
@mick1965, I don't like doing several sets per exercise with fixed rest, which is too boring, preferring to do just one heavy set. I will simply be extending 5's with 1 set per exercise, as usual. It's more resemblant of madcow's 5x5, with just one set, and more exercises.

Farewell, previous loads. I will only be using them for what they are good for: recovery. Adding 5lb per major exercise every 7-9 weeks may be suitable for uber-advanced guys. It's simply wasted time & effort for newbies & intermediates, they can grow much much faster concentrating on max loads (deloading where necessary). Ironically, HST shoot itself in the head.
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Lucky this is not Lyles forum otherwise you would get banned. [emoji3] Lol
 
adpowah said:
So you're just moving to a low volume linear model with frequent rest?
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More correctly, 5 de-loading workouts and 4 workouts in a row using max loads (5-10RM depending on exercise). My muscles will now be exposed to higher loads at least twice as frequently (compare 3 week long cycles with 7-9 week long including SD).
 
HST_Rihad said:
@mick1965, I don't like doing several sets per exercise with fixed rest, which is too boring, preferring to do just one heavy set.
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It is anything but boring, and takes some intestinal fortitude. Not only will you build muscle, you will also get in decent "condition" due to the extended sets during the ramping phases. Doing one heavy set is much more boring, and far less productive, in my opinion. But as they say, to each their own.
 
The BBB split routine wants you to visit the gym 4 times per week... what if I only want to go three times? And the short fixed length rest periods are impractical in a more or less crowded gym. It takes away much of the flexibility. I could instead do just one slow tempo 10 rep metabolic set, and that's it.
 
HST_Rihad said:
The BBB split routine wants you to visit the gym 4 times per week... what if I only want to go three times? And the short fixed length rest periods are impractical in a more or less crowded gym. It takes away much of the flexibility. I could instead do just one slow tempo 10 rep metabolic set, and that's it.
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You can implement the ramping/overreaching principle of BBB in any split you want. You can turn the 4 day per week into a 3 day per week schedule very easily. I believe I already told you how to do just that. Will you get better results if you stick to their layout? Maybe...but not necessarily. They provide several ramps in the book for a reason...for you to experiment with different schedules and training frequency while applying their principles to find out what works best for you. And no, the short rest periods aren't impractical in a crowded gym. It's actually what most people do and you can almost always work in with someone if necessary.

That said you should go through the ramps/workouts as they have laid them out in the book once or twice before changing anything because the whole point of the different ramps in the book is to teach you how to utilize the principles of ramping/overreaching to maximize your growth. Once you have gone through their ramps you can implement the principles to best fit your recovery abilities in any way you see fit. Someone may complain that they went into a state of chronic over training following their ramps. OK...then modify it so that it suits your recovery abilities better and you will grow. Everyone is different and the BBB book is not a "set in stone" routine. I know I keep saying this but you don't seem to get it. It's a means of teaching the principles of overreaching so that you can implement them to maximize your growth potential. Everyone is different and everyone will end up tweaking this program in different ways to fit their needs. But if you don't go through their ramps first you will be pissing into the wind because you won't know how much you can really push yourself.

How do you know that one slow tempo 10 rep metabolic set will produce the same results? Oh, that's right, you don't for a couple of reasons. One, no real studies have been done to compare the two training methods, and two...you've never done the BBB program, so it's all just speculation on your part.

Here are some better questions. Do you want to build as much muscle as you can as quickly as possible? What if that means going to the gym 6 days per week working every muscle 3x..or maybe working every muscle 6x? What if it means only going to the gym twice...or maybe only once? Are you willing to change what you are doing to get better results? It doesn't sound to me like you are willing to change much, if anything.

Frankly, you seem to just make a lot of excuses to fit whatever you feel like doing at the time.

But again, to each their own. Have fun and good luck.
 
I don't have a problem progressing, at least not any more. My only problem was sticking with "previous loads" for too long, but this obvious protocol deficiency has now been taken care of. Good luck to you too.
 
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