Burnt-butter pecan?
This thread contained just about nothing of value to one with a critical thinking approach to applicable exercise science ... once again.
Rethinking Hst
- Thread starter HST_Rihad
- Start date
Burnt-butter pecan?
This thread contained just about nothing of value to one with a critical thinking approach to applicable exercise science ... once again.
leonardopm
Member
I clearly remember Totentanz saying in his book he owes his condition to HST. Could he possibly be lying??? Gear?? Photoshop?? Don't think so.
Many studies have proven that sub maximal loads can build as much muscle (or more) as maximal loads and be much safer, allowing you to continue training without down time. If you want to ignore science, you are welcome to it. However, selectively choosing what you want to hear which is not based on scientific evidence is just plain ignorant. However, please come back in a year or two and let us know how you fare. However, during that time you will have changed your thinking 100 times and you will still be at 139 pounds. Good luck to you.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
O&G, care to share one such study? I can give you the one proving the contrary: previous loads do their best to recover most of the lost muscle. If there is indeed a study telling me that I've actually been growing lean tissue all this time without having the opportunity to grow much stronger due to the taxing true 5RM loads, it would be very reassuring. Only there's no magic pill. The only way to put on muscle naturally is to lift more, either more load at a minimally sufficient volume, or more volume at a sufficiently heavy load as the guy I mentioned in the first post did. Then what's the point in lifting 1-2 sets per MG sub-maximally for 5 weeks including SD? There is none, really. Too long a recovery. Too much wasted time and effort.
TangoDown
Member
How does a study that shows that previous loads recover lost muscle contradict the notion that you can't grow from previous loads? Your study uses a 3 week detraining periods (~21 day SD) and utilizes untrained subjects. Further, they trained solely in the 10 rep max range.
And in the discussion session:
mickc1965
Well-Known Member
Is this not the same study that you stated in your thread 'SD smiles back at us' back in August but you used it to state the complete opposite?
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Depends on how you look at it. Practically, I never experienced growth (bigger measurements) with lower loads. It seems like shorter rest periods (60-90 sec) are critical to enhance metabolic effect on growth. So is higher volume, on the order of 4-5 sets per exercise, 3-4 exercises per MG. Needless to say all this has nothing to do with how HST proposes that we train. And then you start blaming lack of growth on poor genetics, poor nutrition, when it all boils down to poor training.
Obviously you have never heard of Mathias Wernbom?
Mick is 100% correct. You cite studies that do not support your position by misinterpreting results of these studies differently each time you change your flavor. I am afraid what you have is incurable.
We have had some whacks on here before but you just won the award as the very first person I have put on IGNORE. No thanks needed. I won't see your inane comment anyway.
Mick is 100% correct. You cite studies that do not support your position by misinterpreting results of these studies differently each time you change your flavor. I am afraid what you have is incurable.
We have had some whacks on here before but you just won the award as the very first person I have put on IGNORE. No thanks needed. I won't see your inane comment anyway.
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Unless you are doing muscle biopsies, it's pretty difficult to gauge what point in your cycle you are actually growing, which is why most of us measure growth over the course of a few cycles rather than over the course of a week or two.
Regardless, this is why I've always recommended to only SD when necessary, to start closer to 75-80% of your RM for each rep range and to extend 5s as long as possible.
Regardless, this is why I've always recommended to only SD when necessary, to start closer to 75-80% of your RM for each rep range and to extend 5s as long as possible.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Assuming you periodically zig-zag loads while extending 5's to recover, HST would not be very different from any other linear periodization routine aimed at getting stronger, such as Madcow's 5x5. Initially the "smart stuff" was very intriguing and appealing: SD re-sensitizing muscle to previous loads, and all that. Good on paper, dubious in reality.
mickc1965
Well-Known Member
And what is wrong with getting stronger? The 'side effect' of this is muscle growth which is surely what you desire, isn't it?
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HST_Rihad
Active Member
Nothing wrong with that, only I envisioned HST differently. It seems to me that Bryan himself too believed in the re-sensitizing trickery. As a strength gaining routine HST's 5-7 weeks of suboptimal loading and only 2 weeks of growth falls short of other "primitive" periodization routines. People working around HST protocol's deficiencies achieve growth more quickly, Totentanz with his extending 5's, and Jester with his extended lower rep strength work come to my mind. Because this inevitably slow progression as one's strength levels permit goes totally against HST principles originally outlined by Bryan.
The feeling turned out to be wrong: you grow quickly only if you lose the muscle first. Yeah, it's magic, muscle memory. But not the kind of magic Bryan hoped for.
In short, sad as it may sound: if you're growing (new muscle), you aren't using HST principles.
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mickc1965
Well-Known Member
HST is not a strength programme so of course strength gains are not going to be as quick as specific strength programmes, as you well know it was set up for hypertrophy it's just that it doesn't 'appear' to have worked for you - why it took you 5 years to realise I do not know.
Is it the fault of the system or how you train? how hard have you ever pushed for PRs at the end of each and every rep block? do you reduce rest periods between sets during the 1st week of each rep block?
I would imagine that there is no problem with people modifying HST to suit each individual providing you follow the four principles (mechanical load / frequency / progressive loads / strategic deconditioning) it is still HST, if not then I am not a 'HSTer' and will stand corrected.
Where is Bryan? It would be good to have his input on this
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HST_Rihad
Active Member
This is what Bryan wrote/believed, and what I believed. In reality size and strength are interrelated.
Only folks who broke the HST rules grew. I mentioned a few of them.
Phil.
New Member
Honestly, I'm really, really glad that I clicked on this thread. Lurker of the past couple months here.
Even if you believe that HST is an effective program (as I do), this is still something to keep in mind. The problem occurs, I think, when you isolate hypertrophy as a goal in itself. Clearly, during the eight weeks of the actual program, you're gaining muscle (hypertrophy). The question is: how much of that "gained" muscle was lost during the deconditioning period? Does recovering lost muscle result in lost time and effort?
However--and this is what I like about HST--it doesn't mean that the program is flawed. It just means that we need to think about changing the program as more and more research is conducted. This is only one (admittedly large) principle of HST. It doesn't ruin all of the other principles. It's almost impossible to argue that mechanical load, sufficient frequency, and progressive load are universally ineffective. It would be like saying gravity doesn't work for everybody.
Also, as of yet, this doesn't even show that SD is ineffective. It suggests that, which is interesting to think about. But still: I'm not untrained. Most of us here aren't untrained, either. If another study was conducted using trained subjects and it showed the same results, maybe more people would listen up. As for now, any attempt to apply this study generally is guesswork at best.
But this brings up a few questions of my own:
When is a SD period "necessary" (quoting Totentanz)?
How long should you extend the 5's?
What percentage range is "optimal" (clearly I want a lot of different opinions on this)?
Even if you believe that HST is an effective program (as I do), this is still something to keep in mind. The problem occurs, I think, when you isolate hypertrophy as a goal in itself. Clearly, during the eight weeks of the actual program, you're gaining muscle (hypertrophy). The question is: how much of that "gained" muscle was lost during the deconditioning period? Does recovering lost muscle result in lost time and effort?
However--and this is what I like about HST--it doesn't mean that the program is flawed. It just means that we need to think about changing the program as more and more research is conducted. This is only one (admittedly large) principle of HST. It doesn't ruin all of the other principles. It's almost impossible to argue that mechanical load, sufficient frequency, and progressive load are universally ineffective. It would be like saying gravity doesn't work for everybody.
Also, as of yet, this doesn't even show that SD is ineffective. It suggests that, which is interesting to think about. But still: I'm not untrained. Most of us here aren't untrained, either. If another study was conducted using trained subjects and it showed the same results, maybe more people would listen up. As for now, any attempt to apply this study generally is guesswork at best.
But this brings up a few questions of my own:
When is a SD period "necessary" (quoting Totentanz)?
How long should you extend the 5's?
What percentage range is "optimal" (clearly I want a lot of different opinions on this)?
HST_Rihad
Active Member
I'd say extend 5's for as long as you're progressing. Strength gains are much more important than SD+weeks of submaximal progression. I'm thinking of doing 2 week long micro-cycles, newer 5RM being the 6th workout's target, and ramp up there using 10lb/5kg steps regardless of the final 5RM load.
TangoDown
Member
The question is, does statistically significant atrophy even occur after the "recommended" deconditioning period? Remember, we're not talking 21 days like Rihad's study discussed. We're talking, at the least, 9 days.