Simultaneous cut and bulk

Q

quadancer

New Member
This is just an idea that occurred to me, wondering about guys like Hugo Rivera, and others who have managed to magically lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
Most of us have found out that this is elusive at best, if possible at all, but with two different testimonies at hand lately, I seem to be on a revelation of sorts.
    First, my friend Slapshot gained strength while on a cut doing HST, which many say is impossible. He did four heavy workouts a week plus cardio, and gradual caloric reduction.
    Second, my friend Steve Jones is a strength fanatic, who, in a typical quote says, "Despite the fact that HST seems to focus on size and not strength, I view it strictly as a strength program.  The bigger my strength gains at the end of a cycle, the bigger I am." And he did a long miraculous cut himself, from a big ape to a BB physique. There are more, but I use these two as good examples.
    So my uneducated guess would be that it would be possible to hit maintenance calories, rather than cutting, and with cardio and heavy lifting (strength reps), actually gain muscle and lose fat.
    Why does this often not work, and could it if done properly? I ask because I hate cutting and at the limits of a bulk, dont' want to get fatter.
 
Maybe if you are obese or a newbie. Otherwise you're going to need 500 mgs of test a week and probably a healthy dose of tren alongside it.
 
When I started training ten months ago I was 22.3% bodyfat, and was a 38" waste.

Now I am a 32" waste and am 14% bodyfat. I am aiming for 8% though.

Thing is though, I've still managed to get bigger too. Relaxed, my arms went from 11" to 14", thighs 19" to 24", and my back, chest, calves, and neck completly filled out.

I still lift and eat to get big, except I probably have less carbs than most people. The way I lost all my fat was by doing a 30 minute run after my weight training (in a catabolic state), and before breakfast, four days a week I would do three 5 minute rounds of kickboxing on a punch bag.

Because I keep such a strict diet that has all the essentials for bulding muscle (protien, creatine, gluitamine, EFA's, minerals and vitamins) I don't actually loose any muscle, and it doesn't slow my growth down at all.

My muscles are always getting bigger, but the scales hardly ever tell me I am heavier, or lighter. It balances out well.
 
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(Totentanz @ Jul. 31 2006,09:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Maybe if you are obese or a newbie.  Otherwise you're going to need 500 mgs of test a week and probably a healthy dose of tren alongside it.</div>
By and large, you're right. But for some reason, as I stated, certain people bypass the rules and succeed where most fail. The two examples I gave are an ectomorph and a meso-endomorph. So evidently the body types may not have anything to do with it. Perhaps genetics do, but I'm thinking that more of us could do a &quot;fake cut&quot; with diet and nutrient timing along with a certain exersize regimen. I'm talking about just getting back to a starting state for another bulk, not down in the single digits. Somehow, it just seems possible to me, but I don't really have the exact answer yet.
I just heard that Hugo had some strange ideas about exersize routines, and I'm going to see what's up with that. He was a natural BB'er too.
 
im just starting a lean bulk at the moment,which means hitting my calories but cutting out chocolate,beer,cakes and any excess fat.jesus christ ive lost the will to live.

ill never do a dirty bulk again.as for cutting and growing not many are able to do this,and even less are able to make strength gains while doing it! unless exogenous compounds are introduced.
 
What can i say.

i agree with Tot and ilcars.

B/c on paper they are right and they said the same thing I would of told you.

However..I have seen the same thing happen.

I know friends who are not on roids and some of them still grow...some even growth on one meal a day???

I dont get it or cant explain it.

Also somewhere on Bodybuilding.com there is an interview with a amateur bodybuilder who has an awesome physique and he only eats 1 meal a day...thats no lie...Iwish I could fine the article.

he is a big guy too!

Also i believe it was Bob Paris the professional bodybuilder from the golden days...he was a vegetartian and he recommended only .5 grams of protein instead of 1 gram per lbm...he said that in his opinion we didnt need know were that amount of protein?

Now I know these are theory's not science...but i too know many people who eat nothing and get zero protien and somehow still gain?
 
I actually have Hugo's book in pdf format.  His routine is VERY high volume, so it never appealed to me much.  When I was obese and began cutting, I lost alot of fat without losing muscle.  However, after getting significantly below 20% bodyfat (don't know where I was), that kind of progress stopped, almost immediately.

Once you are pretty muscular and relavitely low bodyfat, I believe the body fights tooth and nail to maintain homeostasis by storing fat and burning muscle.  I would like to hear from anyone who has less than 10% bodyfat and arms greater than 18&quot;, or chest beyond 50&quot;, and was able to burn fat without losing any muscle.
I lost too much muscle when I did it.  I'm a tad smarter now though (not much, but hopefully enough).  

I don't recall Hugo ever saying that he &quot;burned fat and gained muscle&quot; simultaneously, but if he is saying that, I'd be skeptical about it.  You (quad), slaps, and I all know someone who kind of alluded to doing the same thing, when in  reality what he did was bulk up to where he had a waist well in excess of 40&quot;, and was a very massive guy, then he dieted down to get a great physique.
 
Steve - i think I read somewhere about muscle gain/fat loss being affected by bodyfat % (cant remember where tho).

I guess its partly genetics and partly the body trying to reach equilibrium.
 
Yeah, I get ya. It was one of the stupid BB magazine articles (I dont buy them; it was laying around a doctor's office) that said Hugo did that and now that I've looked, his website doesn't allude to that at all, but rather a 3 part growth program that, with the exception of failure training, is remarkably similar in science to HST! (High rep prep, mid, then lowrep strength training)
And now I find that Slaps and I had a communication error. He sent me this:
&quot;I was not doing HST...I was doing split routines, hitting each bodypart twice per week over the 8 workouts. Sorry to burst your bubble if you thot I was doing HST. Like I said, if anything I was doing that 'new' routine that's cruising the bb boards...HFT, or high frequency training. It's probably THE best routine I've ever done, bar none, but ya gotta have the time for it, which 99% of the people out there won't, so it's pretty much a moot point as to whether your typical bb'er can even attampt such a routine. But if you wanna post the pic &amp; story anyway, go ahead. &quot;
I'm still waiting for the B&amp;A pics. As for you, I didn't know you lost so much muscle, since you look so dang big yet. When did you shoot the avatars?
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Jul. 31 2006,14:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What can i say.

i agree with Tot and ilcars.

B/c on paper they are right and they said the same thing I would of told you.

However..I have seen the same thing happen.

I know friends who are not on roids and some of them still grow...some even growth on one meal a day???

I dont get it or cant explain it.

Also somewhere on Bodybuilding.com there is an interview with a amateur bodybuilder who has an awesome physique and he only eats 1 meal a day...thats no lie...Iwish I could fine the article.

he is a big guy too!

Also i believe it was Bob Paris the professional bodybuilder from the golden days...he was a vegetartian and he recommended only .5 grams of protein instead of 1 gram per lbm...he said that in his opinion we didnt need know were that amount of protein?

Now I know these are theory's not science...but i too know many people who eat nothing and get zero protien and somehow still gain?</div>
definitley,my bro-inlaw has two meals a day sometimes 3 hes pack loads of muscle on i guess in the end its down to metabolism and genes also test levels help.
 
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(lcars @ Jul. 31 2006,19:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">im just starting a lean bulk at the moment,which means hitting my calories but cutting out chocolate,beer,cakes and any excess fat.jesus christ ive lost the will to live.

ill never do a dirty bulk again.as for cutting and growing not many are able to do this,and even less are able to make strength gains while doing it! unless exogenous compounds are introduced.</div>
If you're craving the sweet things as I always do why not try eating them post workout? I'm bulking at the moment and experimenting with custard and apple pie after my workout :-D

Now I'm not too focussed on having a clean bulk but none the less I don't see a problem with sugary carbs post workout...biscuits, cakes...whatever takes your fancy! In my view a great way to satisfy your sweet tooth whilst actually using the sweet stuff for to benefit your goals.

Also when I was cutting I used after eights to satisfy the craving...not sure if you have them in the states but they're basically wafer thin chocolate mints...very rich so satisfy the taste buds but not many calories.

Just some suggestions to give you back the will to live!!

Cheers

Rob
 
Aw guys, don't you know anything about carbs? There are calories and then there are 'empty calories', the choice is yours. I don't see how white flour products are going to replenish lost nutrients after a grueling workout. But I say there is still hope...
For one thing, the PWO shakes can get awfully sweet when adding fruit to them, and perhaps the addition of maltodextrin and/or dextrose, they become virtually TOO sweet! Then there is the old standby, Cottage Cheese, which of course, tastes like paste - until you add some crushed pineapple to it, but look out; it's addictive!
laugh.gif
 
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(robefc @ Jul. 31 2006,17:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">fat.jesus christ ive lost the will to live.

ill never do a dirty bulk again.as for cutting and growing not many are able to do this,and even less are able to make strength gains while doing it! unless exogenous compounds are introduced.</div>[/quote]
It all depends on your genetics.  I have the type of body that has to stay away from any kind of processed food.  I think it's because at one time I had a 48&quot; waist.  Once you've been pretty fat, your body still has many fat cells that......uh....errr, I don't know what I'm talking about here.  Anyway, I'm an endomorph and I put on fat easily.  Processed sugar kills me, so &quot;dirty&quot; bulks are out of the question for me.  However, you will find that the longer you abstain from processed sugar, the less you crave it.  I used to be a sugarholic, but my diet is very clean now, whether bulking or cutting.

Quad, those pics are way back from dec. 05.   I decided to make an animated gif thing out of them. I'm plenty smooth right now, far from ripped.  This powerlifting competition has got me nervous.  I hope I don't get laughed at, lol.  I'm glad to hear slaps met his goals.  That's pretty cool.
 
I thought it was awesome how he gained a bit in the biceps and delts, and his &quot;boobs&quot; turned into little squares!
laugh.gif
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jul. 31 2006,22:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Aw guys, don't you know anything about carbs? There are calories and then there are 'empty calories', the choice is yours. I don't see how white flour products are going to replenish lost nutrients after a grueling workout. But I say there is still hope...
For one thing, the PWO shakes can get awfully sweet when adding fruit to them, and perhaps the addition of maltodextrin and/or dextrose, they become virtually TOO sweet! Then there is the old standby, Cottage Cheese, which of course, tastes like paste - until you add some crushed pineapple to it, but look out; it's addictive!
laugh.gif
</div>
Well I don't see how maltodextrin or dextrose are going to replace anymore nutrients than custard and apple pie.

After working out the priority is for quickly absorbed protein and carbs...where does empty calories come into it? The only problem I can see is that pastry has fat in it which might not be ideal.

Lyle, diet guru, has commented before that candy is ideal post workout food.

Cheers

Rob
 
Okay, you're probably right: I just thought that the GI index had something to do with it. I'd wondered about the dextrose myself, but it was recommended by another science-based forum. I just have this thing about junk food I guess. It makes me bloat, like, NOW.
 
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(quadancer @ Jul. 31 2006,17:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Slapshots results from the HFT training. He bulked using HST, cut with the HFT.</div>
Man, this stuff can be so frustrating at times. No offense to slaps, but he has the body of a swimsuit model, not a bodybuilder. There's nothing wrong with that. However, he's giving me advice online, and I'm taking it....and, we obviously have completely different objectives and different physiques. HFT might have worked well for him because he didn't have muscle to lose. You do that with more beef on you and you might be in trouble.

Pretty soon you become so jaded that you're unable to spend more than 10 minutes studying anything about bodybuilding out of fear that it will be a complete waste of time.
 
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