Squat depth

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mikeynov said:
And growth isn't just recruitment, otherwise the peak contraction/partial ROM stuff would be optimal for hypertrophy, which it clearly isn't. Having "enough" ROM is clearly important, and having a stretch-under-load component is probably important as well (e.g. RDL's for hamstrings, full squats for quads/glutes/hams, chins/pullups for lats, bench for delts/pecs etc.).
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Good thought. Working the muscle in the more contracted portion is believed to be worse for inducing growth than in the more extended one. That's why lately I've been doing shrugs with bigger loads than I'm capable of lifting fully, the load just barely moves, but the upper traps remain mostly extended since I'm unable to shrug all the way up.
These effective partial reps are also easy to do for pull-ups and don't require a spotter: you simply fail to pull-up all the way up, many times :)
Not possible to work bench presses this "no-lockouts" way without a spotter (or outside of a Smith machine), because someone will need to pull the load up and rack it when you're exhausted.

Not sure if same logic applies to squats physique wise. It's a complex web of different muscles, some of them contracted, some mostly extended.
 
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nislyj said:
It was my understanding that the problem with partial squats as that after enough time, they will lead to a development imbalance between your quads and hams, which gone unchecked, is what eventually leads to knee problems. Parallel squats develop quads and hams more or less equally, along with glutes and adductors, which can lead to a very balanced and functional lower body.

That's what I was told, anyway.
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A good point worth considering.
 
mikeynov said:
Indeed, and treating load on the bar as being synonymous with the amount of force the actual muscles are generating is misleading due to these differences in leverage. The idea is that a heavier weight will make up for the decreased recruitment with depth, but I'm not sure we can necessarily say that.

And growth isn't just recruitment, otherwise the peak contraction/partial ROM stuff would be optimal for hypertrophy, which it clearly isn't. Having "enough" ROM is clearly important, and having a stretch-under-load component is probably important as well (e.g. RDL's for hamstrings, full squats for quads/glutes/hams, chins/pullups for lats, bench for delts/pecs etc.).
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I agree. I read somewhere about Emg activity being really high in the quadriceps during the deep part, when they are stretched and at a disadvantage. Definitely I "feel" something special during more stretch type movements...though I admit this is mostly just bro-logic on my part.
 
Totentanz said:
Just for point of reference, I have large legs and only work them sporadically. Could be a similar situation.

Also what he does now isn't necessarily what he did in the past to get to this point.
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Sci said:
The quadriceps still get heavily stressed in a partial squat, as long as the load is heavy enough. The glutes and other thigh muscles don't contribute as much when the depth is very shallow.
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I've seen many people develop their quads this way. Somewhat akin to doing a leg extension, if you nail the form.

HST_Rihad said:
Does this better stretching surpass bigger loads by their effect? I really doubt it. At such loads we can't possibly expect hams/glutes to not be recruited fully, no matter what the actual ROM is.
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Stretching is an integral part of causing what is referred to as micro-damage, and triggering stimuli that leads to hypertrophy.

mikeynov said:
Indeed, and treating load on the bar as being synonymous with the amount of force the actual muscles are generating is misleading due to these differences in leverage. The idea is that a heavier weight will make up for the decreased recruitment with depth, but I'm not sure we can necessarily say that.

And growth isn't just recruitment, otherwise the peak contraction/partial ROM stuff would be optimal for hypertrophy, which it clearly isn't. Having "enough" ROM is clearly important, and having a stretch-under-load component is probably important as well (e.g. RDL's for hamstrings, full squats for quads/glutes/hams, chins/pullups for lats, bench for delts/pecs etc.).
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Too many folks these days seem to accept that recruitment = growth.
 
AlexAustralia said:
Stretching is an integral part of causing what is referred to as micro-damage, and triggering stimuli that leads to hypertrophy.
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Sorry, but didn't you just say something contrary to this?
"I've seen many people develop their quads this way."

Partial squats keep quads in a semi contracted position.

p.s.: I realize that extended is better than contracted, Bryan mentioned this fact too, that this all boils down to how much load is transferred to the muscle vs. the joints.
http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?18950-Partial-Reps&p=99410#post99410
I think the important thing to remember when making a decision about partial reps is what load is actually transferred to the tissue. Partial reps done in the bottom 1/2 of a movement are great. Partials done in the top 1/2 confer less load to the muscle tissue as they are not taken into a joint angle that places the most load on the muscle as opposed to the joint.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is sometimes the amount of weight that you put on the bar is not a good indicator of how much stress the target muscle will get. It all depends on how much stretch is involved and what the peak load is that's transferred to the muscle tissue.
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But then again, we have anecdotal evidence of folks supposedly growing their legs doing heavy partial squats.
 
Yes, I did say that. Bryan's quote essentially sums up what I'm getting at (and talks about a different point too).

Load increase can/may compensate for reduced ROM, meaning reduced stretch. This only happens up to a certain point, as far as effectiveness is concerned. Increasing the load will cause an increased stretch for a given ROM. 100kg at partial will cause less stretch, and also less micro-damage than 150kg at partial. Nothing new there (load progression).

I'd still prefer to do 100kg full ROM safely than 150kg partial ROM safely.

You're also dealing with a somewhat unique muscle group, the quads.


And again, in terms of joint mechanics and levers, full squats are superior to every other squat if there is not an existing injury, and form is retained.
 
Sweet Lord....here we go again. The bottom line is that heavy partial squats are hard on the knees and you can get as much or more growth doing ATG squats with less weight. Therefore heavy partial squats should be avoided. [/discussion]
 
@Bulldog - he hasn't even misrepresented us against the opinions of people who made their own websites yet ... could be all good, you never know ;)
 
If general hypertrophy and practical strength is your goal, the only squat I would recommend would be parallel box squats. If done correctly, I have never seen a knee injury using box squats although I have seen plenty with ATG and partial ups and partial downs. As for what builds the most muscle, it is always the one that you can do without injury. Once injured, your hypertrophic potential is always less than it was prior to the injury for the rest of your life. If you do not know the correct way to perform box squats, you should learn and give it a go. (Hint: Do not tap and go)
 
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Old and Grey said:
If general hypertrophy and practical strength is your goal, the only squat I would recommend would be parallel box squats. If done correctly, I have never seen a knee injury using box squats although I have seen plenty with ATG and partial ups and partial downs. As for what builds the most muscle, it is always the one that you can do without injury. Once injured, your hypertrophic potential is always less than it was prior to the injury for the rest of your life. If you do not know the correct way to perform box squats, you should learn and give it a go. (Hint: Do not tap and go)
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Box squats are usually done to a parallel bottom position or just short of parallel. I wouldn't consider those partials.

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Doesn't your spine get compressed that way? Ah, I see, if done properly :) In any case I wouldn't bet on keeping perfect form in the last few reps in box squats, where it's critical to keep it flawless.

Still not sure why you don't like somewhat partial squats with bigger loads (meaning as "full" as you can go with that load). As a side bonus it probably confers less load on the glutes, which I personally would love to not grow at all (and not feel their DOMS).

Here we go: the only thing ATG squats accomplish is more gluteus involvement.
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http://bretcontreras.com/best-squat-depth-for-glute-activation/
 
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Hm, I don't even know his story, just googled up a review of the actual study: "The Effect of Back Squat Depth on the EMG Activity of 4 Superficial Hip and Thigh Muscles, by Caterisano, Moss, Pellinger, Woodruff, Lewis, Booth and Khadra, in Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2002".

Whoever he is, Bret Contreras doesn't agree with the results of the study, BTW.
 
Doesn't your spine get compressed that way? Ah, I see, if done properly :) In any case I wouldn't bet on keeping perfect form in the last few reps in box squats, where it's critical to keep it flawless.

Your spine will also compress when you stop and change from a eccentric to concentric movement also. It also puts pressure on the knees. Box squats should be done slowly, not collapsing on the box. As for the final few reps, I find it easier to keep form with the box than without it. That may be because I am knock-kneed and duck-footed. :o
 
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Old and Grey said:
If general hypertrophy and practical strength is your goal, the only squat I would recommend would be parallel box squats. If done correctly, I have never seen a knee injury using box squats although I have seen plenty with ATG and partial ups and partial downs. As for what builds the most muscle, it is always the one that you can do without injury. Once injured, your hypertrophic potential is always less than it was prior to the injury for the rest of your life. If you do not know the correct way to perform box squats, you should learn and give it a go. (Hint: Do not tap and go)
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Soooo good for improving vertical leap.
 
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