Stronger By Science’s Article “grow Like A New Lifter Again”

[UCS1932]

This article is by Greg Nuckols and basically says that you need to induce significant muscle damage to increase Myonuclei number in order to continue growing. It’s a fascinating article and I wanted Bryan’s as well as other people’s opinions on it. While agree that HST is the best training program for hypertrophy, this article made me think that since HST is low volume, then that may limit its effects on increasing Myonuclei number.

What are your thoughts?

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/grow-like-a-new-lifter-again/

 

[Old and Grey]

He seems to make several conflicting statements which puts doubt in my mind as to its conclusions. He also forgets the role that frequency plays in growth. Seems to be more like an article from the 70's or 80's. But if it works for him, I'm all for him using it.

 

[Sci]

This article is by Greg Nuckols and basically says that you need to induce significant muscle damage to increase Myonuclei number in order to continue growing. It’s a fascinating article and I wanted Bryan’s as well as other people’s opinions on it. While agree that HST is the best training program for hypertrophy, this article made me think that since HST is low volume, then that may limit its effects on increasing Myonuclei number.

What are your thoughts?

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/grow-like-a-new-lifter-again/

The article seemed weak. Some questionable conclusions made, though a good read, I’m not convinced of the conclusions regarding muscle damage, and the details of the hypertrophy process as described.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

This article is by Greg Nuckols and basically says that you need to induce significant muscle damage to increase Myonuclei number in order to continue growing. It’s a fascinating article and I wanted Bryan’s as well as other people’s opinions on it. While agree that HST is the best training program for hypertrophy, this article made me think that since HST is low volume, then that may limit its effects on increasing Myonuclei number.

What are your thoughts?

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/grow-like-a-new-lifter-again/

I like Greg's writing. He's a smart guy.

As far as increasing satellite cells, any number of things can increase satellite cells. Data suggests mechanogrowth factors, myogenic transcription factors, lactate, and myomiRs are involved in skeletal muscle satellite cell proliferation and differentiation. And there could be more.

Satellite cells wan't cause growth, however, and muscle damage isn't necessary for growth either. That being said, satellite cell's primary purpose is to enable muscle tissue to repair itself over and over again throughout the life span.

It is also true that the number of satellite cells present before an individual begins training, is predictive of how much that individual will grow as a result. Remember the term "hard gainer"? Hard gainers likely do not naturally have a lot of satellite cells under normal conditions.

One of the most dramatic increases in satellite cells was shown in a study by Neilsen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22802591

In this study they show that within 8 days of low load training with blood flow restriction, satellite cell numbers increased 3-4 fold. So, rather than trying to cause muscle damage, I recommend focusing on metabolic stress before moving into a heavy phase. This might be a meaningful way to boost satellite cell number before more damaging training phases (kind of like the way HST is set up).

 

[Blade]

Yes, exactly, and Wernbom told me they had seen SC activation in advanced Norwegian Powerlifters after some pretty painful occlusion protocols - which should potentially lead to further muscle growth when heavy loading is applied. These were lifters that hadn’t seen any substantial body recomposition changes for the last couple of years, and there was no change in SC after heavy loading - so there is something unique going on with high rep occlusion (I consider Myo-reps with constant tension to also be occlusion training).

 

[Renky]

Yes, exactly, and Wernbom told me they had seen SC activation in advanced Norwegian Powerlifters after some pretty painful occlusion protocols - which should potentially lead to further muscle growth when heavy loading is applied. These were lifters that hadn’t seen any substantial body recomposition changes for the last couple of years, and there was no change in SC after heavy loading - so there is something unique going on with high rep occlusion (I consider Myo-reps with constant tension to also be occlusion training).

Are we talking using the wraps here, or high reps, short rest and stretching the muscle during the short rest?

 

[Blade]

Are we talking using the wraps here, or high reps, short rest and stretching the muscle during the short rest?

They use special blood occlusion cuffs connected to a computerized system that regulates the pressure. The usual protocol is 30-15-15 (reps) with short rest between. They usually release the pressure between sets, as they haven’t noticed added benefits to keep the pressure on.

 

[Renky]

They use special blood occlusion cuffs connected to a computerized system that regulates the pressure. The usual protocol is 30-15-15 (reps) with short rest between. They usually release the pressure between sets, as they haven’t noticed added benefits to keep the pressure on.

That sounds very high tech. Have you used these? Is there another option for someone who does not have access to such equipment? Home made panty hose wraps

 

[_Simon_]

I've done a bit of BFR training for biceps and triceps, did a cycle of about 6 weeks with them as i just wanted to try it out to see what it was like haha.

I didn't have access to proper cuffs, but used wrist support wraps, which I found were definitely moooore than sufficient haha.

I wrapped them about where the arm meets the shoulder, and not too tight either, but tight enough.

Actually I found the exact protocol I tried, these were free sample pages that were sent to my via email so no copyright breaching here hehe. Essentially doing about 30 reps, short rest, max reps, short rest, max reps. But definitely use an incredibly light weight for this, I was surprised at the weight I had to use!

But yes it is quite intense and painful in a different sort of way.. I've never seen my veins in that way before XD

 

[Renky]

@_Simon_ Very good, thanks for posting.
How long did you try this for and what were your results?

 

[_Simon_]

@_Simon_ Very good, thanks for posting.
How long did you try this for and what were your results?

I did it for about 6 weeks, results-wise hard to say, it was awhile ago but I'm pretty sure there was growth from it, but I wasn't taking the nutrition side as seriously during that cycle, and I was doing too much for everything so pretty sure it was a bung cycle which I just burnt myself out on haha... I did gain all over, but no measurements or anything.

I only did BFR once a week however, as I set up a Mechanical Tension/Metabolic Stress/Muscle Damage type of workout, one type for each day, and the BFR was on the metabolic stress day.

I will say that the pump from BFR is absolutely ridiculous haha. I do know that when I did my recent dropset cycle for biceps that there was pretty dramatic growth. Me and Totz talked about this is in the other thread (we did pretty much the dropset protocol from Schoenfelds research paper on it, Totz did tris, and I tried bis. (Try saying that 10 times fast haha..)

I wonder if dropsets also bring about a similar environment to BFR training and myoreps? Would make sense that it would, as they all tend to keep constant tension, emphasis on high fibre recruitment, metabolic stress etc.

 

[Renky]

I did it for about 6 weeks, results-wise hard to say, it was awhile ago but I'm pretty sure there was growth from it, but I wasn't taking the nutrition side as seriously during that cycle, and I was doing too much for everything so pretty sure it was a bung cycle which I just burnt myself out on haha... I did gain all over, but no measurements or anything.

I only did BFR once a week however, as I set up a Mechanical Tension/Metabolic Stress/Muscle Damage type of workout, one type for each day, and the BFR was on the metabolic stress day.

I will say that the pump from BFR is absolutely ridiculous haha. I do know that when I did my recent dropset cycle for biceps that there was pretty dramatic growth. Me and Totz talked about this is in the other thread (we did pretty much the dropset protocol from Schoenfelds research paper on it, Totz did tris, and I tried bis. (Try saying that 10 times fast haha..)

I wonder if dropsets also bring about a similar environment to BFR training and myoreps? Would make sense that it would, as they all tend to keep constant tension, emphasis on high fibre recruitment, metabolic stress etc.

I saw this discussion a while back. Interesting... I feel like adding something like this for fun to see what happens. What was your exact protocol for this? It would be interesting to compare this to the occlusion type training.

 

[_Simon_]

I saw this discussion a while back. Interesting... I feel like adding something like this for fun to see what happens. What was your exact protocol for this? It would be interesting to compare this to the occlusion type training.

For the dropset protocol I used EZ bar spider curls, was a good exercise to really lock down the movement and make sure there was no momentum helping out.

I did this 2x week, starting out with using roughly my 12RM. I originally planned on doing two weeks of 12RM, 10RM, 8RM, but I ended up just starting with 15RM-ish and increasing the weight every workout or second workout whenever I could until at the end of the cycle I was using about 7RM-ish.

So the exact method was doing a set until complete failure, drop the weight 20% (eventually I went to 25% drops as I was struggling to get many reps with 20% drops), do another set to failure, drop the weight to do a final set to failure. So three sets in total (but more like just one long extended set hehe)

And no rest between sets is recommended in the paper.

Ah and that's right, actually to make it so there was little to no rest between drops, for the first set I actually used dumbbells, then dropset to a second pair of dumbbells (lighter of course), then the final drop I used the EZ bar. I train at home so have two pairs of adjustable dumbbells, ez bar, and barbell.

But yeah for sure give it go, it is intense haha but fun, and probably only one (maaaaybe two) muscle group to do this with. It definitely was very effective.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

... - so there is something unique going on with high rep occlusion (I consider Myo-reps with constant tension to also be occlusion training).

I agree with you about Myo-reps. Additional steps can also be taken if high levels of metabolic stress aren't achieved during a set. holding a moderate stretch immediately after the set also occludes blood flow. No need to stretch hard, just enough to cause tightness in the tissue (which occludes the blood flow).

 

[Totentanz]

I will say that the pump from BFR is absolutely ridiculous haha. I do know that when I did my recent dropset cycle for biceps that there was pretty dramatic growth. Me and Totz talked about this is in the other thread (we did pretty much the dropset protocol from Schoenfelds research paper on it, Totz did tris, and I tried bis. (Try saying that 10 times fast haha..)

I wonder if dropsets also bring about a similar environment to BFR training and myoreps? Would make sense that it would, as they all tend to keep constant tension, emphasis on high fibre recruitment, metabolic stress etc.

That drop-set protocol, when followed as written, absolutely creates some significant metabolic stress. I'm not sure if it directly compares to actual occlusion training, but I do believe (so far) that using this drop-set protocol for something like triceps after your normal workout can at least work as a decent substitute. One thing I'll recommend for the drop-set protocol is to have a partner with you if possible to count out your reps and sets, note what loads you used, etc. It gets really hard to remember how many reps you did, or what loads you used by the time you get near the end of your drop sets if you aren't resting at all between them.

 

[_Simon_]

That drop-set protocol, when followed as written, absolutely creates some significant metabolic stress. I'm not sure if it directly compares to actual occlusion training, but I do believe (so far) that using this drop-set protocol for something like triceps after your normal workout can at least work as a decent substitute. One thing I'll recommend for the drop-set protocol is to have a partner with you if possible to count out your reps and sets, note what loads you used, etc. It gets really hard to remember how many reps you did, or what loads you used by the time you get near the end of your drop sets if you aren't resting at all between them.

Yeah it's always intense doing dropsets... And true, it's hard to know what's what during the middle of them haha. I just write down and set up the weights prior, and try my best to remember the reps I hit

 

[NWlifter]

Satellite cells wan't cause growth, however, and muscle damage isn't necessary for growth either. That being said, satellite cell's primary purpose is to enable muscle tissue to repair itself over and over again throughout the life span.

It is also true that the number of satellite cells present before an individual begins training, is predictive of how much that individual will grow as a result. Remember the term "hard gainer"? Hard gainers likely do not naturally have a lot of satellite cells under normal conditions.

Satellite cell donation though sets the basal protein synthesis ability though right via number of nucleus? That's why people with more, can grow more? It seems to me, it's almost like a workout 'revs' up existing nucleui, that causes the post workout MPS increase, but after 48 hours, they drop back to an 'idle' state. The more nucleui you have, the more protein synthesized in that basal 'idle' state to maintain that cell size (since PS and PD are always going on, muscle cell size would be the average point between those two). I bet people who are stuck at a size plateau, yet are training hard, continue to rev up PS, grow a micro amount, then when PS drops to baseline, they in effect lose that little bit of size if there aren't enough nucleus in the cell to 'maintain' the level of PS to 'keep' that increase in size.

One of the most dramatic increases in satellite cells was shown in a study by Neilsen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22802591

In this study they show that within 8 days of low load training with blood flow restriction, satellite cell numbers increased 3-4 fold. So, rather than trying to cause muscle damage, I recommend focusing on metabolic stress before moving into a heavy phase. This might be a meaningful way to boost satellite cell number before more damaging training phases (kind of like the way HST is set up).

Interesting, I seem to get more growth from metabolic work, I am a hardgainer, perhaps this explains why.

This is interesting, I did a bit of reading and man, this explains...
* Hardgainers
* Plateaus
* Easy gainers (those that can just lift heavy and keep growing)
* AND, it's also yet another bump to HST being solid (cycles of high fatigue blending into heavier loads, best of all factors in the right order)
* (also, why some reported more growth with 10's and even 15's over 5's in some cycles)

 

[Renky]

I agree with you about Myo-reps. Additional steps can also be taken if high levels of metabolic stress aren't achieved during a set. holding a moderate stretch immediately after the set also occludes blood flow. No need to stretch hard, just enough to cause tightness in the tissue (which occludes the blood flow).

Ok, sounds like this may be a reasonable work around option. Great, thanks

 

[Renky]

For the dropset protocol I used EZ bar spider curls, was a good exercise to really lock down the movement and make sure there was no momentum helping out.

I did this 2x week, starting out with using roughly my 12RM. I originally planned on doing two weeks of 12RM, 10RM, 8RM, but I ended up just starting with 15RM-ish and increasing the weight every workout or second workout whenever I could until at the end of the cycle I was using about 7RM-ish.

So the exact method was doing a set until complete failure, drop the weight 20% (eventually I went to 25% drops as I was struggling to get many reps with 20% drops), do another set to failure, drop the weight to do a final set to failure. So three sets in total (but more like just one long extended set hehe)

And no rest between sets is recommended in the paper.

Ah and that's right, actually to make it so there was little to no rest between drops, for the first set I actually used dumbbells, then dropset to a second pair of dumbbells (lighter of course), then the final drop I used the EZ bar. I train at home so have two pairs of adjustable dumbbells, ez bar, and barbell.

But yeah for sure give it go, it is intense haha but fun, and probably only one (maaaaybe two) muscle group to do this with. It definitely was very effective.

Thanks for sharing your set up on this Simon. Much appreciated! I will give this a trial for sure.

 

[Renky]

That drop-set protocol, when followed as written, absolutely creates some significant metabolic stress. I'm not sure if it directly compares to actual occlusion training, but I do believe (so far) that using this drop-set protocol for something like triceps after your normal workout can at least work as a decent substitute. One thing I'll recommend for the drop-set protocol is to have a partner with you if possible to count out your reps and sets, note what loads you used, etc. It gets really hard to remember how many reps you did, or what loads you used by the time you get near the end of your drop sets if you aren't resting at all between them.

It will be interesting to see what kind of results will happen for advanced lifters that might be nearing their genetic potential with size.