TG´s HST ***Give it Hell*** LOG

Discussion in 'Training Logs' started by thegentleman1981, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Thanks guys for the tips.
    On monday it wasn´t possible to go to the gym-i celebrated new years in another town and had to take a ride there.

    Todays session:
    3th session of 10th
    Bench: 65x10/10
    Cable Row: 55x10/10
    Dumbbell shoulder Press: 22.5x10/10
    Pulldown: 57.5x10/10
    Cable Curl: 42.5x10/10
    Pushdown: 60x10/10
    Leg Press feet high: 75x10/10
    Leg Curl: 22.5x10/10
    Crunch: 8/8
    Felt really good today and still do. Not sore, beaten up or sth I experienced often before.
    Feel good and just normal.
    Nevertheless I think that repping out (within reason) on the second set will yield better results overall and make the lighter build up and higher rep days much more efficient regarding FT fiber recruitment.

    -Pasta time-
  2. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    Thats a good load of work there. Good Job. What do you mean by...?
  3. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    thank you sci.

    Well I leave the cycle as it is-but I thik it could be more efficient. When you approach near failure (not to failure) the higher theshold fibers get recruited. Or of you train above 85%of1rpm.
    In hst the higher threshold fibers get recruited at the last session of each rep cycle and when you lengthen the 5´s.
    All other workouts are submaximal regarding the activation of the higher threshold fibers.
    Thats why its sometimes suggested to tighten up the rest periods or slow down the reps to make the lighter weight more efficient.

    Also Bryan sometimes keeps on repping. Also wendler in 531 does that with his last set and makes it therefore more efficient.

    By repping out on the last set each session-but stopping when the rep speed slows-you active the higher Mus and also make the submaximal sessions more effevtive growth wise.

    When lengthen the 5´s this "technique'" isn´t needed- The weights are alread heavy enough.
  4. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    Ok, that sounds good, a slight twist on myo- reps, etc.
  5. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    True. But without lengthening the set even more. Just rep out till rep speed slows down.
    Including mini sets a la myo reps will be a option too. But then (at least for myself) the issue of total rep volume comes appearant again which was also already discussed.
    The describes way will just be a tiny twist.
  6. grunt11

    grunt11 New Member

    Repping out on the last set is only going to be slightly more efficient than standard sets and reps since you are only auto-regulating on the last set. The early reps of every set are still just as inefficient as before including the last set.

    If you are going to try auto-regulating why not just try myo-reps since it’s going to be way more efficient at maximal muscle fiber recruitment from the end of the activation set on.

    I gave up on standard sets and reps long ago using them only for certain exercises that either don’t lend themselves well to myo-reps for me (Calf Raises and Shrugs) or things I don’t ever work below 80-85% on (Squats, Deadlifts and their variations).

    Myo-reps are faster (unless super-setting) than standard sets/reps, less wear and tear on joints, and most of all allow me to get more work done in fewer reps which means I can workout every 24 hours at least until myo-reps become pointless around maxing at 7 reps or less on the activation set.

    However, remember that myo-reps aren’t just clustering. They’re meant to be done with a slow eccentric (3-5 seconds) and explosive concentric.
  7. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    thanks grunt.
    Its still not clear though how important overall volume "vs" "effective" reps are.

    Why do you think wendlers 531 programming works so well for so many? Is it the progressive overload in waves on the 531 sets or also the "grinding" on the last set?
    Nevertheless IME the volume on the 531 sets is too low IME.
  8. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Considering your fatigue issues in the past, I think that repping out would not be a good idea. I think changing things during the cycle is a bad idea anyway. You have to see the cycle through as planned, changing things mid-cycle leads to ****arounditis and eventually will lead you down the road to instinctual training where you just go in and do whatever without a plan.
  9. grunt11

    grunt11 New Member

    I think the main reasons that programs like 531, 5x5 etc. work so well for most people is because like all good programs they follow the same fundamental principles and are straightforward and simple so it’s hard to screw them up. That last part is worth repeating they are simple and hard to screw up so people not only do them correctly they stick with them. This is why Wendler say do it exactly as I say or you’re an idiot and it won’t work (well something like that). It’s also why all of us who have had success with HST tell those who are new to start with the basics for the first couple cycles at least.

    I also think that 531 and 5x5 type programs are more psychologically appealing in that they allow you to see gains (in strength) regularly whereas gains in muscle mass take longer to show up for an newbie because of neural adaptation and for the experienced because they have already gained the easy early muscle and must work ever more diligently for less gains as they progress. This is one of the main reasons I switched to following the Westside model for Powerlifting as it fills my psychological need to be challenging myself and see regular progress, however I still SD and use linear progression for my Repetition exercises.

    If you look at what the detractors of HST say they usually can’t fault most of the principles since all successful programs use them. What they usually can’t get past in the end is the SD part. They understand the need for de-load but like most of us just hate the thought of spending 9-14 day doing no workouts at all. Besides the fact that I just feel like crap when I don’t work out it also creates a huge psychological fear that you’re going to waste away all your gains. The reality is that strength and muscle mass stay with you much longer than endurance, the exception would be if your on a very severe diet in which case you could lose noticeable muscle mass in two weeks w/o working out, though because of muscle memory you will gain it back quickly.

    The one place you are likely to lose something is in maximal strength because you lose the neural adaptation. However, in HST this can be countered by forgoing the 15s and starting with the 10s so you are working back up to 5s and beyond fairly quickly, just look at what Totentanz has done Deadlifting while using HST principles. You can also minimize this by using things like myo-reps which get more work to the hardest to recruit fibers.

    There is also some research that for pure strength gains undulating periodization (weekly or daily) can be superior to progressive loading, which may be another reason programs like 531 and work so well for many people. However, no vanilla program is going to work forever. That’s why 5x5 programs have intermediate and or advanced protocols and why 531 is generally considered an intermediate program.

    IMO “Advanced” programs like Westside or even the protocols advocated in “Pimp my HST” are advanced is because the lifter who has learned to listen to what their body is telling them (without ego getting in the way) can make superior gains by tailoring a program to their specific needs since they are not only past the beginners stage where pretty much anything works but most importantly they have learned what does and doesn’t work for them.

    As for effective reps and volume the way myo-reps handles it is through rep cadence and range-of-motion. By using a slow eccentric you increase the time-under-tension and also increase the metabolic byproducts making up for doing fewer total reps. Myo-reps also advocates occasionally using partial range of motion so that while doing a set the muscles never completely relax which also ups the metabolic stress. So this is where the “more effective” reps come from. You are doing few reps and also it’s important to note with lighter weight (because of the slow eccentric) which puts less overall stress on your CNS, joints and connective tissues.
  10. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Thanks tot. I will not change the template untill the first hst cycle is over. I am not a fan of instinctual training either.
  11. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    thank you grunt for your long reply.

    Well every programm works if progressive overload is applied.
    I think there are 2 main differences in porgramming:
    -How long and hard you overload before backing off.
    -If you increase the load depending on gains of fitness (like upper number of rep range) or not.

    I am not sure which is superiour.
    I can imagine that in the beginning linear programming with longer cycles work quite well.
    Like 15´s till you stall, then 10´s then 5´s then repeat.
    As you progress the trend goes to shorter cycles and sometimes a sharper increase in load.
    Here wendlers programming fit in. 531 are short cylces of 4 weeks as DUP or HLM is.

    Were do you see the difference of increasing the load when "fitness is gained" aka you got stronger and "earned" your increase vs just increasing the load like hst does?
  12. grunt11

    grunt11 New Member

    While those are differences between programs the biggest differences in 531 and 5x5 programs and HST are the rep ranges used and de-loads vs. full SD. Remember SST is primarily to make you stronger with heavy loads which requires more practice with heavy loads whereas HST training is focusing on building muscle as efficiently as possible regardless of how your strength changes. Note in both cases you don’t get one without the other it’s just a matter of which you are prioritizing.

    There is some research that points to HLM style periodization being superior in building strength with higher loads though just because something has a statistical significance in a study doesn’t mean a significant carryover to real world training.

    There is plenty of evidence that the more you practice a specific thing say 5 reps 3 rep or 1 rep the better you adapt to working in those rep ranges however there is always going to be some carryover. So as your 3RM or 5RM improve so likely will your 1RM. If instead you improve your 15RM it may carry over to your 1 and 3 RM but is less likely to do so as much as improving your 5RM will.

    You’re talking here about the difference in what been called “functional” or “rational” hypertrophy and “non-functional” or “irrational” hypertrophy, and also often called “myofibrillar” or “sarcoplasmic” hypertrophy respectively. From what I’ve read you can’t really get one without the other or growth in the sarcoplasm mostly accompanies myofibrillar growth (probably because it’ necessary to support it). The muscle fibers which give most of your growth are the bigger more powerful ones whether you’re a bodybuilder or weightlifter. The main reason a 180 lb. powerlifter can lift heavier weights than a 180 lb. body builder is simply because the powerlifter trains with protocols meant to do so. Tell the same powerlifter to lift the same weight as a bodybuilder for 12-15 reps and the bodybuilder wins because the bodybuilder trains more in that rep range. So who is actually more fit, they guy who has a higher 1RM or the guy who has a higher 12RM. Or to put it another way who is more fit a sprinter or a distance runner?

    One of the brilliant things about HST and also one people have the hardest time accepting is that your when it comes to growing, your muscles don’t care (within reason) what rep range you’re working in as long as you’re are increasing the load (while maintaining sufficient TUT and metabolic stress) to present them with “new” stimuli forcing them to adapt and grow. Which bring you back to the biggest issue most people who accept the basic principles for muscle grown have with HST is SD.

    SD allows lighter loads to appear as a “new” stimulus to your muscles even though you’ve uses those loads before because your muscles have grown unaccustomed to them again. SD also allows for satellite cell proliferation, but some research seems to indicate that sufficiently de-loading can also do this though I don’t know which is going to turn out to be more efficient at it.

    It sounds like you want to be able to maximize your strength gains as well as your mass gains at the same time which both in my reading of the science and personal experience is not the most efficient way to do it. Our bodies seem to at their best when focusing on one thing at a time. So it seems that to get both as big as you can as fast as you can (at least until you start getting near your limit and perhaps even then) it’s best to bulk up putting on muscle as efficiently as possible and then train that muscle to be stronger through neurological and physiological adaptation.

    It’s similar IMO to trying to put on muscle while cutting fat or staying lean. It’s possible to a small extent until you start getting really lean but I guarantee that the person who spends 8 weeks bulking and then 8 weeks cutting will have more muscle after 16 weeks than someone who tried to “clean” bulk for 16 weeks. Our bodies just don’t like to do two diametrically opposite things (in this case be anabolic and catabolic) at the same time. While building muscle and improving strength aren’t opposed to each other they respond better to different training protocols which at times can be counter to each other.

    Note that I’m putting my money where my mouth is and forgoing powerlifting training while I’m bulking right now and will continue to do so until I near the end of my bulk. Once I finish bulking I know I can them become stronger in my 1RMs while eating maintenance and even while cutting, I’ve already proven that to myself. So my choice is to try and get a little bigger and a little stronger at the same time or to get a lot bigger and a lot stronger in the same timeframe by focusing one at a time. I personal would rather get a lot of both in the same time rather than a little of both.

    Sorry so long but I try to write responses with the understanding that there are far more lurkers here than posters and many of them may not have been privy to previous exchanges here between forum members.
  13. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    thank you grunt for the answer. I appreciate your time no matter how long the post is.

    Strength vs Hypertrophy:
    Well I think it depends how your definition of strength is.
    I mentioned this somewhere before. But to see gains in muscle you need to see gains in PERFORMANCE too. With performance I don´t necessary mean 1RPM. But 5RPM ,10 RPM,20 RPM whatever. If your strength improves in a (higher) rep range your size of the worked muscle will change too. This could be because of more sarcomer elements or sarcoplasmatic ones. Either way you "strength" or performance will have increased in the worked rep range.
    As you mentioned strength is "rep range specific" thats true. But in this sense also hypertrophy training is perhaps not strength specific but performance specific.

    I think the pro of programms which lower and higher rep ranges (like westside or also DUP which Layne norton seems to discovered some months ago) are that they seem complimentary.
    The lower reps allow for ongoing "strength" increases via FT recruitment and neuronal improvement. The medium days for a blend of tension and metabolic stress and then we have the metabolic stress days for metabolic stress and recovery.
    The metabolic recovery days let recover from the high tension days. The low rep days spur recovery from volume and metabolic work.
    With the improved endurance from the metabolic days someone can rep out more with a heavier load and buffers the lactid acid better.
    With the improved FT recruitment and strength from the low rep day someone can use simply more weight on the higher rep days.

    So it seems to make sense to use concurrent training strategies to improve more aspects of the neurmuscular system instead of training only one ability at the time.
    I know this sounds like classic periodization and we als Bodybuilders don´t need to peak. Thats true. But we also need to improve performance too increase our size.
    When you stall. This could be many things: Too low work capacity to train with suffcient volume, too less muscle endurance to create sufficient metabolic stress for further improvement.
    I know SD tries to trick this out but at a certain point you also need to improve your performance to gett better and bigger.
    Otherwise,if this variable would explain THAT much of muscle growth variance you could use the same weights (without improvement) over and over and build up and build up.
    And we know that this won´t work over the long haul.

    Also for hypertrophy you perhaps not need to improve "strength" but performance.
  14. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Wow-had forgotton to log my session yesterday:

    Todays session:
    4th session of 10th
    Bench: 65x10/10
    Cable Row: 60x10/10
    Dumbbell shoulder Press: 25x10/10
    Pulldown: 62.5x10/10
    Cable Curl: 45x10/10
    Pushdown: 65x10/10
    Leg Press feet high: 80x10/10
    Leg Curl: 22.5x10/10
    Crunch: 8/8

    -It seems that the load of the 15´s was too les to induce a training effect on curls. I still get both 2 sets in. I know its not important because its a ****ing iso but I feel nice Prs here when the 5´s arrive.
    -Bench was tougher this time. I tried to warm up shorter but it seems i still need to take my time here.

    -Questions for the 5´s will rise.

    Runnung Sushi time!
  15. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    The trouble with your reasoning here is that you haven't taken the effects of accumulated fatigue into account. You can gain muscle but not see any gain in performance until you allow accumulate fatigue to dissipate. This can often be the reason why some trainees think they make their best gains during a particular rep range when, in fact, they have been making steady gains throughout a cycle, but those gains only show up when the level of accumulated fatigue is reduced. Sometimes that occurs during a cycle when they have an extra day's rest or because their non-training life gets a little less hectic for a while. It is not surprising to find that, after taking a few days off at the end of a cycle (while getting some good rest and eating well), testing for new RM's will produce pleasing results.
  16. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Good one.

    I think there are also different kinds of "fatigue" dependend on the training stimuli. If the main stimuli is a high tension you will fatigue from "intensity". If the main stimuli is volume you will fatigue from the higher volume.
    Thats also why different kinds of deloads in strenght training are suggested. You can deload via volume reduction or intensity reduction-depending on what built up your fatigue.
    Thats why I think rotating different rep schemes and therefore volumes and intensities have there value.they complement and deload each other.
  17. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Well there aren't different kinds of fatigue.
  18. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    Perhaps my wording was not that good.
    Perhaps fatigue is the same but depending on how it was build it should be treated and "reversed".
    Like too much volume---cut back volume. too much intensity---cut back intensity etc.
  19. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    You cannot have 'too much intensity'? It's not quantifiable. If you mean 'the weight is too heavy', say that instead.

    This is the same definition problem I have tried to explain to you previously. Fatigue and being tired are not the same thing. They are different, quite distinct and should not be interchanged as terms. Fatigue by definition is not acute. What you feel at the end of a workout is not 'fatigue', it is exhaustion. What you may feel after doing 8 weeks of 5's is fatigue.
  20. thegentleman1981

    thegentleman1981 New Member

    this is what i meant ;) "Fatigue which masks fitness"

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