The "building muscle and losing fat" debate

Discussion in 'General Training' started by imported_etothepii, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I think they were equating it with your weight and bodyfat measurements, which going by those measurements you would have lost muscle. That doesn't mean much though because your bodyfat measurements probably weren't even accurate.
     
  2. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    <div>
    (stevejones @ Jan. 22 2007,18:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> My heavy squats and also deadlifts were working my abs pretty good, and you throw some fat on top of those and your gut can get pretty big, which is why i think i got up to a 44&quot; waist.  That's one of the reasons I never do any ab work, both during bulking and cutting phases.  Although, the heavier I squat the bigger my abs are going to get...that's life.</div>
    Agreed. I have a bit of a curve in the lower back also, causing a 'stickout' of the gut, but I'm really going to a bigger pants size lately. The Madcow 5x5 calls for weighted crunches and situps a couple times a week, and I believe I need them for the strength, and for the back. So I guess I may have to deal with it until the spring cut. I want to get stronger first and maybe put on some more beef first. This is my first time out on a strength program, and my totals really blew me away when I saw my comparisons to the stats you sent me.

    Heheh, it's not that I'm that strong...I think it's just that guys my age are so weak!!!

    Next I have to decide wether to do another 5x5 or HST again.
     
  3. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Jan. 21 2007,17:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Best measuring device. The mirror.
    See the fat.
    You are fat.</div>
    It's as true as that statement. Taking measurements helps so you don't go overboard one way or another. I have put on some fat, but I have put on a lot of muscle during the past year and a half. The scale, calipers, and mirror all agree.

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Technically, aren't we losing fat, gaining fat, losing protein and gaining protein all the time? Fat and protein don't just sit there, right?</div>

    Isn't that what Fausto or someone else said earlier? Stairs, not ramps...
     
  4. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    It seems like it possibly even does it in a single day! I wake up with a slightly different looking stomach every morning. Sometimes I see abs, sometimes not, with the same BW. But I can't see muscle going up or down drastically in a day, so it has to be all about fat and water. Steve and I know a guy on another site who claims gains of 1/4&quot; in a single day...but he bloats up and down like a girl.
    This is why I total my BW for a week and divide by 7.
     
  5. Most likely water...fat doesn`t accumulate over night, and once it is there it doesn`t go away over night either.
     
  6. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Quad, I average my measurements through the week just like you do. Morgoth has a point about water weight too.
     
  7. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I've gone as much as 5 lbs up or down in a single day and there AIN'T NO WAY that is muscle, fat, or anything but water, crap, food, and hot air. I just hit an alltime high of 213 today, but do I weigh 213? Almost. I poopid, didn't drink or eat much today (my lady and I are sick and been in bed two days) and decided to work out anyway.
    (Weird News Dept: I had one of my best workouts EVER! Go figure...)
    Regardless, I was 211, 209, 209, 210, 212, 211, 213 this week, so I weigh 210.7 lbs.
     
  8. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    I found some numbers that may eleviate (spelling?) some shock that some of you had from my results:

    2/1/05: 215 @ 21% = 170 lbm

    (I then went on an extreme cut and lost muscle...)

    7/1/05: 181 @ 14% = 156 lbm

    (this is when I started HST and slowly bulked..)

    9/1/06: 212 @ 12.2% = 186 lbm

    (then I gained some fat while having two surgeries and being sick..)

    1/1/07: 235 @ 15.5% = 199 lbm

    All in all, it's about 30 lbs of muscle in 2 years. From my understanding, people can gain up to 15 lbs (or even more?) of muscle per year w/o AAS.

    Now it is time for my 2nd cut in as many years...

    By the way, yesterday was my first day at the gym in quite some time [​IMG]
     
  9. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    <div>
    (colby2152 @ Jan. 30 2007,16:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I found some numbers that may eleviate (spelling?) some shock that some of you had from my results:

    2/1/05: 215 @ 21% = 170 lbm

    (I then went on an extreme cut and lost muscle...)

    7/1/05: 181 @ 14% = 156 lbm

    (this is when I started HST and slowly bulked..)

    9/1/06: 212 @ 12.2% = 186 lbm

    (then I gained some fat while having two surgeries and being sick..)

    1/1/07: 235 @ 15.5% = 199 lbm

    All in all, it's about 30 lbs of muscle in 2 years.  From my understanding, people can gain up to 15 lbs (or even more?) of muscle per year w/o AAS.

    Now it is time for my 2nd cut in as many years...

    By the way, yesterday was my first day at the gym in quite some time [​IMG]
    </div>
    colby,
    i think you meant to post this in the &quot;muscle gain in a yr&quot; thread in the basic training pric. and methods section. it is an impressive result but a little misleading in this particular thread b/c you cut over the summer to achieve the lower bf (then when you started) after your bulk.

    still impressive nonetheless.
     
  10. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">colby,
    i think you meant to post this in the &quot;muscle gain in a yr&quot; thread in the basic training pric. and methods section. it is an impressive result but a little misleading in this particular thread b/c you cut over the summer to achieve the lower bf (then when you started) after your bulk.

    still impressive nonetheless.</div>

    Whoa, good call... gonna find that thread...
     
  11. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Here is something interesting...I recently have been on a serious cut (about a month) and also quit bodybuilding workouts in favor of powerlifting. I have lost a bunch of fat so far but only about 6 lb.s bodyweight. Even keeping active, taking thermogenics and dieting I have been losing weight quite slowly, for some reason the scale is barely moving even though I am more defined than ever, strength has not decreased at all. I have been scratching my head about these weird results, could it be possible to be gaining lean mass while burning fat???

    My workout has been nothing but high volume squatting, benching and deadlifting with some posterior shoulder work. Tonight I took some measurements and am quite surprised. My thighs have increased a full inch since Jan. 1st (now 25 1/4&quot;), my arms are the same (15 1/4&quot;)and waist is down about a half inch (34.5&quot;)! Awesome results in such a short time, and no I am not on steroids. Apparantly with so much squatting and deadlifting, my thighs are rapidly hypertrophying even while overall bodyweight is slowly declining and I am losing fat. I think I have lost more than 6 lb.s of fat based on my appearance and overall intensity of the cut. This of course could only happen if I actually gained lean mass.

    I didn't think it was possible to gain muscle while losing fat, but it seems to be happening and I am not going to fight it!
     
  12. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    I think that is a good indication that is exactally what is happening. Congratulations! It's a beautiful thing, isn't it?!
     
  13. vagrant

    vagrant New Member

    For the obese or untrained, it's easy. I'm proof of that.


    I wasn't going to cut until late this summer. However, I've been challenged to do a cutter in May/June. We shall see how it turns out. I'll take before/after pics and share them if I decide to do it.

    All depends on if I've met my current performance goal by then which requires a lot of eating to keep muscle and strength going up in the face of an obscene amount of cardio. I am gaining a little fat with all this eating, but am willing to gain it to keep from losing muscle (which I'll need to reach my goal).
     
  14. <div>
    (Aaron_F @ Jan. 22 2007,02:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (drpierredebs @ Jan. 18 2007,12:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It is simply not true that anyone can gain muscle and loss fat at the same time.</div>
    If you were right, it would be good, but your not.</div>

    I guess I made a mistake. What I wanted to say is that it is simply not true that one cannot gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.
     
  15. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Gotta love those double negatives. [​IMG]
     
  16. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    LOL! Huh? Who? Wuzzat?

    Let me write that down and decipher it... [​IMG]
     
  17. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Pierre

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess I made a mistake. What I wanted to say is that it is simply not true that one cannot gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. </div>

    Could it be that Berardi was on thr right track, stating that high activity coupled with weight lifting (5000 + calories) will equate to fat loss while gaining muscle?
     
  18. You`d have to have a helluva lot of activity to cover those 5000 calories(you`re talking about intake, or have I misunderstood you?). And again, unless human physiology changes in a major fashion, unless you`re:a)fat;b)new to training(as in new or coming after a very long lay-off);c)chemically assisted, losing fat while building muscle is arguably impossible.
     
  19. vagrant

    vagrant New Member

    I don't know about 5K being an impossibly high need. I'm not terribly active. My job involves lots of naps and TV time plus I only have to work every 4th day.

    I lift EOD. I do conditioning work and fight training EOD. On 4300 cals I picked up a few pounds then stalled. Stuck at 205 right now and about to bump the cals up again. Sneaking up on 5K.

    Berardi's &quot;massive eating&quot; calculator says I need 4300 but it's not enough to grow on right now.
     
  20. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    A calculator is only as good as YOUR metabolism I think.
    You know what you need.
     

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