The Look

Discussion in 'General Training' started by The Rose, Oct 27, 2002.

  1. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    The principles are the same - adding weight to the bar over time. Most "strength" programs are actually just focusing on particular lifts. Right now, I'm still looking for a more balanced program. Maybe once I can't increase my bench, squat, deadlift and row anymore, then I'll start looking into those programs some more. Even then, I think I would still follow HST principles.

    5x5 is a great strength program and my HST cycles basically look similar to 5x5 lately anyway. Basically, it's just more volume for the main lifts and less misc crap to get in the way.
     
  2. My goal is to get as strong as humanly possible without the use of steroids.

    5 x 5 is my mantra.

    Remember: A gym without chalk is a Health Spa!
    (from the book Starting Strength)
     
  3. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I am doing max-stimulation and HST clustering in my training. My goal is overall strength and size, and I believe there is NOTHING better out there for this. Have you read about max-stim? It is a hard-core strength routine even if it is based on hypertrophy, the two are more related than people think. Now if your goal is sport-specific strength, like an olympic lifter or something, than I agree that there are better programs out there for that.
     
  4. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    I don't have as much expertise on the science as a lot of folks, but if you have sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, sarcomere hypertrophy, and CNS efficiency, it's the latter two that will help get you strong. High reps and endless pumping sets focuses on the first, HST more on the second I think. The really heavy work with low reps tends to develop the CNS more, and routines specific to a sport will be more optimal for this, as Scientific Muscle says.

    However, for most of us who are far from our ultimate potential for sarcomere hypretrophy (more/thicker muscle fibers) I think we'll gain more strength long-term by developing that as much as possible. After all, CNS efficiency just helps you to better use the muscle that you have. I'm thinking develop hypertrophy as much as possible, then when it's very hard to add more, more specialization on training that is more CNS-specific (like heavy singles/doubles) will help maximize the ability to use what you've developed.

    Having said all that, the principles behind 5x5 seem very close to HST, and Max-Stim is based mostly on the same science as HST. So you have HST with rep ranges 15 down to 5, 5x5 with rep ranges mostly 5 down to 3, and Max-Stim's reference program uses 20 total, though this can vary. However, Max-Stim because of the M-time allows use of heavier weights than ordinary set/rep schemes, probably as heavy or heavier than the 3x3 ranges in the 5x5 schemes, but still with enough total reps to be fully hypertrophy inducing.

    So on the continuum above, all three should be good for hypertrophy, with HST leaning a little more toward hypertrophy than CNS development as compared to 5x5. Max-Stim may give us the best of both worlds, though perhaps not as much sarcoplasmic (non-strength producing) hypertrophy, as there isn't much pump when you're trying to eliminate the fatigue produced by multiple reps. Like Scientific Muscle I'm also trying it.

    Time will tell...
     
  5. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Sep. 02 2006,15:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am doing max-stimulation and HST clustering in my training.  My goal is overall strength and size, and I believe there is NOTHING better out there for this.  Have you read about max-stim?  It is a hard-core strength routine even if it is based on hypertrophy, the two are more related than people think.  Now if your goal is sport-specific strength, like an olympic lifter or something, than I agree that there are better programs out there for that.</div>
    How long have you been doing it ?

    When you began max-stim, what was your strength level on the big 3 lifts ? What is it now ?

    If you do a clean and press, please post your progress on that.
    Thanks
     
  6. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Only been lifting 4 months now after a long layoff. The first couple of months my strength increases were due to muscle memory, so I do not have before/after reords that are worth anything, sorry stevejones.

    My last 6rm measurement was as follows:
    bench press: 80 kg
    squat: 80 kg (weak legs) [​IMG]
    sldl: 100 kg

    Pretty small lifts I know, but it has only been 4 months, give me 4 more months and I will post again! [​IMG]

    I don't clean and press.
     
  7. liegelord

    liegelord New Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Sep. 02 2006,20:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't clean and press.</div>
    You should start doing them. I think power cleans, or full squat cleans should be a part of every program.
     
  8. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    <div>
    (liegelord @ Sep. 02 2006,20:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You should start doing them. I think power cleans, or full squat cleans should be a part of every program.</div>
    liegelord, I've seen you recommend Olympic lifting style exercises several times. Right now, I'm doing 4x/week A/B with ATG squats and power shrugs 2x per week on the &quot;A&quot; routine and deads/SLDL alternated on the &quot;B&quot; routine (1x/week for each).

    I've pared it down to 6 exercises for A and 6 for B, so that I can work really hard on the ones that I do and still get done in around an hour. If I added power cleans or squat cleans I'd probably replace the power shrugs, which are sort of an oly style assistance exercise themselves. I've been going up on my toes in the power shrugs to add a bit of calf development also. The cleans would be even more of a dynamic movement, but I'd have to cut the weight some.

    It seems like the cleans duplicate a lot of what people already exercise in squats, deads and shrugs, but in a more dynamic manner. I'm interested in more of your thoughts on the benefits of them, and why you recommend them so highly.
     
  9. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (stevejones @ Sep. 02 2006,19:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (scientific muscle @ Sep. 02 2006,15:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am doing max-stimulation and HST clustering in my training.  My goal is overall strength and size, and I believe there is NOTHING better out there for this.  Have you read about max-stim?  It is a hard-core strength routine even if it is based on hypertrophy, the two are more related than people think.  Now if your goal is sport-specific strength, like an olympic lifter or something, than I agree that there are better programs out there for that.</div>
    How long have you been doing it ?

    When you began max-stim, what was your strength level on the big 3 lifts ? What is it now ?

    If you do a clean and press, please post your progress on that.
    Thanks</div>
    Steve, not trying to hijack the thread here, but you are very much welcomed to come by Max-Stim and review the logs and results, you don't need to register or anything to view the posts. Many experienced lifters have reported some pretty decent results and ones with less ecperience have also. Because it's based on your own trainnig level it fits most lifters, trained, semi trained, or newbs.

    Anyway I just wanted to personally extend you an invite [​IMG]
     
  10. <div>
    (stevejones @ Sep. 02 2006,19:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
     
  11. Most welter weights in the UFC look about what I'd like to look like.
     
  12. Lifting N Tx

    Lifting N Tx New Member

    <div>
    (etothepii @ Sep. 06 2006,10:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Most welter weights in the UFC look about what I'd like to look like.</div>
    Yeah, looking like Matt Hughes wouldn't be hard to take.
     
  13. liegelord

    liegelord New Member

    <div>
    (Lifting N Tx @ Sep. 03 2006,02:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (liegelord @ Sep. 02 2006,20:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You should start doing them.  I think power cleans, or full squat cleans should be a part of every program.</div>
    liegelord, I've seen you recommend Olympic lifting style exercises several times.  Right now, I'm doing 4x/week A/B with ATG squats and power shrugs 2x per week on the &quot;A&quot; routine and deads/SLDL alternated on the &quot;B&quot; routine (1x/week for each).

    It seems like the cleans duplicate a lot of what people already exercise in squats, deads and shrugs, but in a more dynamic manner.  I'm interested in more of your thoughts on the benefits of them, and why you recommend them so highly.</div>
    Power shrugs are good, but I believe the olympic lifts are better for overall development. The two lifts and variations, such as hang snatches, hang cleans, power cleans, involve so much of the body, especially the largest muscles i.e., hips, quads, traps, there is better overall development.

    I think the key to getting big and very strong is to focus on only a few exercises that work the most muscle. Olympic lifts are almost a full body exercise.

    In my experience, I have gotten better results in my legs and upper back from adding olympic lifts to my routine than just doing squats, deadlifts, rows and chins. Bill Starr wrote an article about improving the deadlift by not deadlifting as often and doing cleans instead.

    My standing OH press has also been improving because of all the overhead work. My OH press is dreadful, only 170x1 with BB, 85x1 with DB's. I should hit 195x1 this cycle.
     
  14. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    I want the strength of Mariusz Pudzianowski, the agility of Reggie Bush, and the speed of Asafa Powell. Aesthetics is just an added bonus. So, why am I doing HST ? Because it's easier than the other stuff, but it's time for a change now.

    I'm switching to Max-Stim after my SD is over.
    http://hypertrophy-research.com/maxstim/index.html
     
  15. spartan81

    spartan81 New Member

    I'm going for ~175 @ 8% bodyfat. It doesn't sound very big, considering I'm 5'9&quot; but I started at around 125 and 12% bodyfat and I'm small boned (my wrist currently measures at 4.75&quot;).

    Currently I'm 155 @ 10% bf so I've got 20+ lbs to go!

    Oh, and a Frank Zane or Francis Benfatto aesthetic type of look is what I'm going for
     
  16. zilla

    zilla New Member

    I'll be happy with my look once i'm leaned out. I have a very good frame so i know it'll all work out in the end.
     
  17. RUSS

    RUSS Member

    If only I could achieve the pec development of Richard Simmons , the cankle sweep of Dame Edna ,with the arm development of Def Leppards drummer , I'd probably be happy....


       Till then I'll settle for trying to achieve a laymans version of an off season Dorian Yates...
     
  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I've not noticed too many guys having a problem with gaining too much bulk, no matter the program. I think the tweaks and differences are small unless you're comparing something like 20 rep stuff to 5's.
    Strength and conditioning are another matter entirely.
     
  19. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    IM still liking Clark Bartram physique!
     
  20. Rain

    Rain New Member

    <div>
    (andré @ Oct. 30 2002,14:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">uhhh:

    give me

    forearms of Gunnar Rosbo,</div>
    First time I've heard crazy norwegian bodybuilder Gunnar Rösbö mentioned in years... : )
     

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