Total Rep Volume and Rep Ranges

I didn't quite follow everything in your post directly above, but I will respond as best I can.

-SD is essential to a successful HST cycle. The 15's are nigh useless without the SD, as are much of the 10's.

-Test your maxes (i.e. your PRs) right before you SD and at the last session of your cycle

-6-8 reps is not 'heavy' enough to be your last rep range. I would advocate 3-5, with a set of 15's afterwards

-Less pre-analysis and more execution; the sooner you SD and do a cycle, the sooner you will see results

-Eat enough protein, eat enough calories
 
Hi Alex and Totentanz,

Thank you for the fast reply. Cool.
I would favour not to shoot for total reps but no remain the rep structure of 15/10/5 or 15-20/8-12/6-8 (makes the Prs testing for planning the cycle more easy instead of focusing on one precise rep number)
Also I think that each rep zone has its merit regarding the different proportion of fatigue and tension.

What do you mean by 15-20/8-12/6-8? If you are talking about changing the setup, stick to 15/10/5 for now. You shouldn't be planning to do PR testing throughout the cycle. That's going to cause more fatigue. Once you have a plan for the whole cycle, just do the plan. Don't push for new maxes for the 15s and 10s during the cycle. The only time you should be pushing for new numbers is the last two weeks of the entire cycle.

I know we had this before,but for last point:zig zagging.

I nevertheless do consider to do this. I find it appealing when the last 2 sessions of each rep cycle get really hard and eventually failure happens,that you have a short back cycle period before the next peak.

I know that nots the "goal" of HST but motivates me: What can i suggest regarding Prs?
Already in the 15´s or in the 5´s or only after finishing the whole cycle and when testin my new maxes again?

This is quite important for me,because If I see I am getting stronger I am on the right road MORE than when getting NOT stronger.
I know the needed load depends on condition of the muscle-nevertheless I f you are not gettign stronger over time you won´t get bigger. And a SD would not help THAT much to justify playing around with 50kg on bench and expect the chest of a 180 rep bencher.
Because a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle-especially over time.

Thank you gentlemen.

Are you doing SDs at all? SD isn't just about taking time off.
 
HI guys,

thank you-perhaps I was not that clear.

-The ranges i suggested (15-20 etc) are meant for the PR testing BEFORE the cycle. Its quite difficult to precisly reach a excact 5 RPM or 15 RPM. Perhaps I can get 16 reps or 17 and not 15. To fail in a range is easier than estimating to fail on a precise number. Again I mean the PR Testing before the whole HST cycle begins.

- PRs: I meant how much "strength" increase I can suggest in the last 2 weeks of each rep cycle.

-I understand the meaning of SD. I just wanted to point out, that for motivation its important for me to get stronger druing the cycle and that each cycle is started a bit heavier than the last.

-The onyl point I am sceptical about is overreaching. I mentioned that I tried a short ramp up cycle for 5´s. I started with 75% of my 3x5 max and increased by 5 perecent each session. I really had the impression that each time I increased the weight the bar felt MUCH heavier than it should be. Also I didn´t got my old 3x5PR and my joints started to ache. Of course not the muscles "stores" fatigue like Alex said-I really think its a CNS issue and thats why HLM systems were invented or why Wendler does his 5/3/1.
This is why I also often asked questions about light days.
Sure its not your mission to convince me-but that the only point I am really worried about.
 
You shouldn't be overreaching in HST. You work up to your RM each range, you don't exceed your RMs and if you are eating enough and don't have messed up hormones, then by the time you reach your RM, you should be stronger than that RM.

You shouldn't get so hung up on 3x5PR or whatever. Remember, we aren't talking about your 3x5RM, we are talking about your 5RM. It is not a requirement that you can complete three sets of 5 reps with the load for it to be your RM, it is the load you can just complete 5 reps with. The subsequent sets don't really matter that much within the framework of HST. And if you are having difficulty with fatigue, then you definitely should not be adding on sets. Refer to Bryan's specifications for volume:

Increase volume if:

You are never sore
You are never tired
You are not growing

Maintain volume if:

You are slightly sore most of the time
You are tired enough to sleep well, but not so tired you lose motivation to train.
You are noticeably “fuller”

Decrease volume if:

You are experiencing over use pain, and strain symptoms in joints and/or muscles.
You are tired and irritable all the time, yet don’t sleep well.
Strength levels are significantly decreasing.

The fact is... HST is not a very challenging program compared to most out there. If you are having fatigue issues with HST then you either need to increase your work capacity, increase your calories or you have set up your program wrong.

You should check out a couple topics in the FAQs. Some from Blade's posts, some from Bryan.

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12711-quot-Sub-maximal-quot-workouts

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12723-How-many-sets-and-how-to-determine-it

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12728-Zig-zagging-or-undulating-loads

I think these topics are all good reading for anyone setting up an HST cycle. People tend to overcomplicate things and HST really is a simple thing.
 
HI guys,

thank you-perhaps I was not that clear.

-The ranges i suggested (15-20 etc) are meant for the PR testing BEFORE the cycle. Its quite difficult to precisly reach a excact 5 RPM or 15 RPM. Perhaps I can get 16 reps or 17 and not 15. To fail in a range is easier than estimating to fail on a precise number. Again I mean the PR Testing before the whole HST cycle begins.

- PRs: I meant how much "strength" increase I can suggest in the last 2 weeks of each rep cycle.

-I understand the meaning of SD. I just wanted to point out, that for motivation its important for me to get stronger druing the cycle and that each cycle is started a bit heavier than the last.

-The onyl point I am sceptical about is overreaching. I mentioned that I tried a short ramp up cycle for 5´s. I started with 75% of my 3x5 max and increased by 5 perecent each session. I really had the impression that each time I increased the weight the bar felt MUCH heavier than it should be. Also I didn´t got my old 3x5PR and my joints started to ache. Of course not the muscles "stores" fatigue like Alex said-I really think its a CNS issue and thats why HLM systems were invented or why Wendler does his 5/3/1.
This is why I also often asked questions about light days.
Sure its not your mission to convince me-but that the only point I am really worried about.

I wouldn't touch HLM or 5-3-1 with a ten-foot pole. I want my exercise routine to be based on sound scientific proof

You're spending far too of your analysis on hypothetical scenarios and speculations.

SD. Do a properly designed, complete HST cycle. You just said you "tried a short ramp up cycle for 5's" ... why? I don't understand why a novice lifter (this isn't a bad thing btw, everyone is a beginner at some stage) would undertake a cycle that's so completely adjusted. You have plenty of hypertrophy to gain from your 15s and 10s at your BW and strength levels. Why waste that and the time that comes with adjusting to somewhere to aren't prepared for or necessarily recommended?

It really sounds like you're trying to;

a) Run before crawling

and

b) Find a program that suits your mindset, rather than adjusting your mindset to science and evidence




***Footnote: After viewing many of the photos on Wendler's website, I find it very hard to believe that everybody in those images is training without chemical assistance.
 
Hi guys,
thank you for your time and posts.
I will post again when my first HST cycle is through. i am excited.
Some last tips for the first round?
 
Easy approximation rule for RM:
15 RM = 60% 1RM
10 RM = 75% 1RM
5 RM = 90% 1RM

Again, these are only estimates. But for your first cycle, and if you already know your 1RM, you can use these values for your first cycle. Recall, these values will always be a moving target, especially with your first few years of training, so don't sweat being off a few pounds/kilos for just one cycle.
 
+1 for don't stress about the perfect 75% or 90% for estimating your 5RM and 10RM.

If your 1RM happens to be (for instance) 122.5kg bench, 75% of that is 91.875kg, kind hard to find 1kg plates at the gym to make it 92kg etc. So 90kg would be fine (again, for example).
 
thank you for the input guys.
I think of starting HST but also will cut this routine. I know that the results will not be THAT good then-but at 22%BF I need to cut.

I know HSt is against "muscle confusion" and so am I. I just thought about eventuelly taking some isolation exercises in for fun.The volume would be distributed:
So I think about follwing routines:

Routine 1: Compound+isolation:One set per exercise
Leg Press
Leg Extension
Romanian Deadlift
Leg curl
Bench Press
Cable Cross
Cable Row
Prone Raise
Dumbbell shoulder Press
upright row
Lat pulldown
Pullover
cable curl
Overhead extensions
Cable crunch
-------------------------
Routine 2 just compounds 2 sets per exercise:
Leg Press
Romanian deadlift
Bench press
Cable Row
Dumbbell shoulder Press
Lat pulldown
--------------

What would be your bet and why?
Thank you again gentlemen.
 
Routine 1 if you like multiple exercises. I would personally go for the abbreviated second program, because I like working multiple sets of the same exercise. My opinion is to do 30 total reps in an abbreviated routine, so 2x15, 3x10, 6x5.
 
That may work just fine. I have seen evidence for volume being a big contributor to hypertrophy , thus my preference for higher reps per exercise.
 
Hell yeah it will get tough. Did you think that building a works class physique would be easy?;)
 
Routine 2 by a landslide. Bigger weights, better exercises.

I would turn Cable Rows into DB/BB Rows, DB Shoulder Press to BB (seated or military, either is fine).

I would add Upright Rows to Routine 2 as well.


Also, strongly recommend against 6x5 for you, there's no need for such excessive volume at this stage for you. You will get a hypertrophic and strength response to 2 sets of 5's, 6 will just destroy your CNS. If you're still only going at twice weekly, I can see 3 sets being good.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Unless you are a ranknovice or just have pathetic recovery ability, there is nothing excessive about 6x5. The problem with most bodybuilding programs isn't overtraining, despite what the majority may say, most trainees just train not frequently enough nor hard enough. My own experience as well as studies of hypertrophy research point to higher Volume as well as higher frequency being superior.
Anecdotaly, I have Best results with high frequency (3xweek) and higher volume (24-40) reps per exercise.
 
Last edited:
gentleman1981 has expressed recovery problems several times in this topic he started. As far as pointing to studies regarding volume go, I tend to rely on those that Bryan based HST upon. Of course I may well be overstating the power or even validity of those studies, but I certainly don't think that 6 sets (24-40) reps are necessary to achieve maximum growth. From memory the effectiveness of work sets after the 1st is quite low, I think the information is probably still on the HST front page somewhere.

I absolutely support higher frequency. g'man1981 said he can only train twice a week, unfortunate as it is.


Happy to be pointed in a different direction though if you have some studies that strongly support a higher training volume per workout :)




Tangent - what is that ubiquitous phrase 'hard enough' or 'high intensity' supposed to refer to? For example, if we were both training 6x5 sets and you were achieving results
and I wasn't (assume diet is in surplus etc etc) then how would 'hard enough' explain anything? I'm not having a go at you, I just don't find that expression to be of any value or reference anything useful. Gritting my teeth isn't going to make my muscles grow etc.
 
The influence of frequency, intensity, volume and mode on muscle hypertrophy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sports Med. 2007;37(3):225-64.
The influence of frequency, intensity, volume and mode of strength training on whole muscle cross-sectional area in humans.

I thought I'd summarize this comprehensive paper both for my own benefit and for those who want the highlights. I've restricted my summary to the parts of the paper that talk about your typical "dynamic external resistance" training. The gist of the paper is that while we do know what works for hypertrophy (pretty much everything, to an extent), we really don't know what's optimal, especially in trained individuals and in the long run. Dan also posted some excerpts on his forum: http://hypertrophy-research.com/phpB...opic.php?t=213

Results
No relationship could be found between frequency of training and the increase per day in muscle cross sectional area. When the intensity was plotted against the rate of increase, a weak tendency was found for the rate to increase with increasing intensity. The highest rates of increase tended to occur around 75% of 1RM. When volume was plotted against the rate of increase, greater gains in muscle mass were seen initially with increasing volume while there were diminishing returns as the volume increased further. The highest rates of increase tended to occur with 30-60 repetitions per session.

Discussion
Frequency: For hypertrophy, studies suggest that training two or three times per week is superior to training one time per week, even when volume is equal. However, there doesn't appear to be a benefit of three sessions per week over two. "Although some interesting trends can be discerned from the data... there is clearly a need for further research on training frequency in both highly-trained and less-trained subjects."

Intensity: "The studies reviewed in this article show that there is a remarkably wide range of intensities that may produce hypertrophy. Still, there seems to be some relationship between the load (or torque) and the rate of increase in CSA." This is not linear, but seemed to peak around 75%. "Thus, the results of this review support the typical recommendations with intensity levels of 70–85% of maximum when training for muscle hypertrophy, but also show that marked hypertrophy is possible at both higher and lower loads."

Volume: "Overall, moderate volumes (≈30–60 repetitions per session for DER training) appear to yield the largest responses." An exception to this is with very high loads (90% 1RM or 120% to 230% 1RM with eccentrics) where high rates of growth have been shown with volumes as low as 12-14 repetitions per session. To date, relatively few studies have directly compared the effects of different volumes of work on the hypertrophic response as measured by scanning methodology." The paucity of data clearly warrants further research.

Mode of Training and Type of Muscle Action: You often hear statements like "eccentric training produces the greatest muscle hypertrophy". "This review demonstrates that given sufficient frequency, intensity and duration of work, all three types of muscle actions can induce significant hypertrophy at impressive rates and that at present, there is insufficient evidence for the superiority of any mode and/or type of muscle action over other modes and types of training in this regard." In fact, the data suggest that pure eccentric training is inferior to both concentric and eccentric+concentric training, though this is still a subject of debate rather than a scientific certainty.

Rest Periods and the Role of Fatigue: "Upon closer examination, it appears that when maximal or near-maximal efforts are used, it is advantageous to use long periods of rest. This is logical in light of the well known detrimental effects of fatigue on force production and electrical activity in the working muscle. If high levels of force and maximum recruitment of motor units are important factors in stimulating muscle hypertrophy, it makes sense to use generous rest periods between sets and repetitions of near-maximal to maximal efforts... On the other hand, when using submaximal resistance, the size principle dictates that motor unit recruitment and firing rates are probably far from maximal until the muscle is near fatigue or unless the repetitions are performed with the intention to execute the movement very quickly."

Interactions Between Frequency, Intensity, Volume and Mode: "Based on the available evidence, we suggest that the time-tension integral is a more important parameter than the mechanical work output (force × distance)... Overall, we feel that the trends observed in this review are consistent with the model for training-overtraining continuum proposed by Fry,[186] where the optimal training volume and also the volume threshold for overtraining decreases with increasing intensity... Regarding training for hypertrophy in already highly-trained individuals, there is at present insufficient data to suggest any trends in the dose-response curves for the training variables."

Eccentrics: "Taken together, the results of these studies support the common recommendation of using somewhat lower frequencies and volumes for high-force eccentric exercise than for conventional resistance training..."

Order of endurance/strength training: "It has been suggested that strength training should be performed first, in order not to compromise the quality of the strength-training session.[194] However, this order may not necessarily be the best choice for inducing increases in muscle mass. Deakin[195] investigated the impact of the order of exercise in combined strength and endurance training and reported that gene expression associated with muscle hypertrophy responded more strongly when cycling was performed before strength training, instead of vice versa. Interestingly, in the study of Sale et al.,[111] performing cycling first seemed to induce the greatest increase in muscle area. Still, because the lack of studies investigating the effects of the order of exercise in concurrent training on hypertrophy, no firm conclusions can be drawn on this issue."

Time Course of Muscle Hypertrophy: "Until recently, the prevailing opinion has been that neural adaptations play the dominant role during the first 6–7 weeks of training, during which hypertrophy is usually minor." However, several investigations [13,27,54,87,105,118,128] have demonstrated significant hypertrophy at the whole muscle level after short periods of training (3–5 weeks). "Thus, there now plenty of evidence that significant hypertrophy can take place early on given proper frequency, intensity and volume of training," even prior to changes in muscle CSA. "As argued by Phillips,[198] the idea that early gains in strength are due exclusively to neural adaptations seems doubtful... In some strength-training studies, the increase in muscle volume is delayed, while in others, the rate of growth is rapid. We speculate that less-damaging training modes may allow the hypertrophy response to start earlier. Regimens that include eccentric muscle actions, especially those involving maximal effort, appear to require a careful initiation and progression of training to avoid muscle damage and muscle protein breakdown [excessive apoptosis and proteolysis]."

The Stimulus for Muscle Hypertrophy in Strength Training: "Two studies by Martineau and Gardiner[216,217] have provided insight into how different levels of force and different durations of tension may affect hypertrophic signaling in skeletal muscle... they remarked that both peak tension and time-tension integral must be included in the modeling of the mechanical stimulus response of skeletal muscle... Based on the data reviewed in this paper, we speculate that hypertrophic signalling in human skeletal muscle is very sensitive to the magnitude of tension developed in the muscle. Hence, for very short durations of work, the increase in muscle size will be greater for maximal-eccentric exercise than for maximal-concentric exercise of similar durations... The response is presumably also dependent on the total duration of work and increases initially with greater durations. Thus, both short durations of maximal eccentric exercise and somewhat longer durations of concentric, isometric and conventional dynamic resistance exercise can result in impressive increases in muscle volume. However, especially with maximal eccentric exercise, damage also seems to come into play as the duration of work increases even further and the acute and/or cumulative damage may eventually overpower the hypertrophic process."
 
.....
Training Implications and Recommendations: For your typical "dynamic external resistance", recommendations are given for "Moderate load slow-speed training", "Conventional hypertrophy training", and "Eccentric (ecc) overload training". These three modes are denoted as suitable for beginners, novice-well trained, and advanced-elite, respectively. For the "Conventional hypertrophy training" for the novice to the well trained, they recommend an 8-10RM load (75-80% 1RM), with 8-10 reps to failure or near failure, 1-3 sets per exercise, progression from 1–2 to 3–6 sets total per muscle group, moderate velocity (1-2 seconds for each CON and ECC), 60-180 seconds rest between sets, and 2-3 sessions per muscle group per week.

Conclusions: "This review demonstrates that several modes of training and all three types of muscle actions can induce hypertrophy at impressive rates and that, at present, there is insufficient evidence for the superiority of any mode and/or type of muscle action over other modes and types of training. That said, it appears that exercise with a maximal-eccentric component can induce increases in muscle mass with shorter durations of work than other modes. Some evidence suggests that the training frequency has a large impact on the rate of gain in muscle volume for shorter periods of training. Because longer studies using relatively high frequencies are lacking, it cannot be excluded that stagnation or even overtraining would occur in the long term. Regarding intensity, moderately heavy loads seem to elicit the greatest gains for most categories of training, although examples of very high rates were noted at both very low and very high intensities when the sets were performed with maximum effort or taken to muscular failure. Thus, achieving recruitment of the greatest number of muscle fibres possible and exposing them to the exercise stimulus may be as important as the training load per se. For the total volume or duration of activity, the results suggest a dose-response curve characterised by an increase in the rate of growth in the initial part of the curve, which is followed by the region of peak rate of increase, which in turn is followed by a plateau or even a decline. It is recognised that the conclusions drawn in this paper mainly concern relatively short-term training in previously untrained subjects and that in highly trained subjects or for training studies extending for several months, the dose-response trends and the hypertrophic effects of different modes and types of strength training may be very different. The same may well be true for other populations, such as elderly and injured individuals."
 
Back
Top