When I get hungry I get tired

[imported_elle11]

Here's a quote from MedlinePlus with the full link at the bottom of this post:

Quote[/b] ]In the longer term, you may need to modify your diet so that you get glucose into your body more evenly throughout the day. This may prevent further hypoglycemic episodes. Small, frequent meals with complex carbohydrates, fiber, and fat; and avoiding simple sugars, alcohol, and fruit juice are the type of dietary modifications that may be recommended. You should also eat meals at regular intervals, and balance extra exercise with extra food.

Keep in mind that we are talking about a normal healthy athletes as opposed to how you would treat someone with diabetes who has a hypoglycemic episode. The dietary recommendations are all geared towards decreasing the glycemic response to food (fiber, complex not simple carbs) Protein has also been shown to decrease the glycemic response in a mixed meal. Alcohol blocks glycogen breakdown in the liver (which is why I wake up in the middle of the night sweating and with a rapid heartbeat after a few glasses of wine

)

Medline Hypoglycemia info

 

[kube]

Quote[/b] (elle11 @ Aug. 08 2003,9:42)]My comment was based on some research I was involved with at an Endocrinology research center with Type I diabetics, and individuals with hypoglycemia. The normal controls, diabetics and hypoglycemics alike had a more normalized glycemic response and in turn insulin response to multiple mixed meals in comparison to 3 meals a day. The response was also improved when the meals included balanced protein and carbohydrate as compared to a higher glycemic meal (higher carbs).
IOW, if you have problems with hypoglycemia and you want to regulate your glucose and insulin response, you can effectively do this by eating muliple mixed meals and avoiding high glycemic meals. Six mixed meals a day is a well accepted treatment for hypoglycemia in clinical circles.
Another thing you might want to consider is that if you are on a very low carb diet and working out often your glycogen stores are depleted. The first place your body would get glucose from when it needs it is liver glycogen and if it's not there, you may have symptoms of hypoglycemia which would be perfectly normal in that situation. (Some people might call it bonking.)

Eating more often just gives your body a more steady stream of glucose either from carbs or taken from protein.
Just my 2 cents!

you go girl.

 

[Calkid]

Quote[/b] ]Calkid, do you 'bonk' if you have a high glycemic meal prior to training?

What do you mean by 'bonk?' Feel really energized? I don't know; I usually work out about 30 minutes after I wake up, and I don't have a significant amount of carbs beforehand.

 

[kube]

i tend to get moody if i dont eat on time. i turn into the grinch. however, a meal always fixes the problem. and when i eat 5 or 6 times a day i never seem to get into a bad mood. when i eat 3 times a day... mood swings. and i feel weak. cant concentrate. i think i will go with elles advice. elle, would you say im hypoglycemic? and if i spelled it wrong, just shoot me.

 

[boggy]

Quote[/b] ]how r u eating, negative cals, low carb?, phase of hst etc

between 1450 and 1650(in w/o days becaus I add sugars to post shake) cals low carb (smth like 50%pro 30%fat 20%carb)

i'm male 63kg.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (elle11 @ Aug. 10 2003,11:16)]

Quote[/b] ]In the longer term, you may need to modify your diet so that you get glucose into your body more evenly throughout the day. This may prevent further hypoglycemic episodes. Small, frequent meals with complex carbohydrates, fiber, and fat; and avoiding simple sugars, alcohol, and fruit juice are the type of dietary modifications that may be recommended. You should also eat meals at regular intervals, and balance extra exercise with extra food.

Keep in mind that we are talking about a normal healthy athletes as opposed to how you would treat someone with diabetes who has a hypoglycemic episode. The dietary recommendations are all geared towards decreasing the glycemic response to food (fiber, complex not simple carbs) Medline Hypoglycemia info

Interesting few point on your quote from this webpage
The quote you give, they are generalising the effect of GI from diabetics onto healthy individuals. (and what they generally recommend Saying hte term complex carbohydrates also shows the absolute age of the information. While glycemic load can be important, a low GI food will overall easily help control hypoglycemia even if eating 3 meals aday. Because a low GI food can have carbs released for hours post prandial.

Quote[/b] ]Protein has also been shown to decrease the glycemic response in a mixed meal.

Protien decreases the GI of a meal, but also increases the insulin release of the meal (altho this is countered somewaht by the glucagon release) Extrinsic fat (liquid) doesnt have a whole lotta effect on GI, just as extrinsic fibre does.

 

[imported_elle11]

Calkid:

Quote[/b] ]What do you mean by 'bonk?' Feel really energized?

Another word for hitting the wall -- extreme fatigue that may happen with runners or long distant cyclers who don't eat enough and often enough during a race to keep their blood sugar up. We've all seen pics of the end of a race with the contestant on the ground almost unable to move or having to be helped to walk by friends. I think that with the level of workouts that we do and many of us on low carb, we are in a depleted glycogen state and need to eat more often.

Kube:

Quote[/b] ]elle, would you say im hypoglycemic?

I couldn't say for sure, but again I think we who are doing HST are in a depleted glycogen state some of the time especially if we're on low carb. I imagine there are a bunch of us that have these same symptoms. I sometimes feel like I MUST take a nap and whereever I am, I will fall asleep. I bet if all of us who are having these symptoms went to the doctor and had a BS test, it would be normal -- most of us are healthy fit athletes who are performing taxing workouts that consume a lot of calories and use up most or all of our liver glycogen over a period of time. Our BS would just be on the low side of normal.

Aaron:

Quote[/b] ]Extrinsic fat (liquid) doesnt have a whole lotta effect on GI, just as extrinsic fibre does.

True, but fat and fiber do decrease the emptying time from the stomach which would ensure a more steady stream of food from the stomach into the intestine.

Boggy:

Quote[/b] ]between 1450 and 1650(in w/o days becaus I add sugars to post shake) cals low carb (smth like 50%pro 30%fat 20%carb) i'm male 63kg.

63 kg is around 140 pounds -- for cutting most people say 10 to 12 cals per pound of body weight, but I think that's on the low side for HST (just my opinion) and we would do better with 12 to 15 cals per pound. That would be 1680 to 2100 for cutting for you.


Back to hypoglycemia -- idiopathic hypoglycemia (symptoms without any underlying endocrine disorder) is fairly rare and usually the person will have a normal blood sugar if tested -- but they still have the symptoms which is aggravating and sometimes debilitating. Bottom line is I think this is normal with all that we are doing, and the best way to manage it is to eat more often. Plus we can take advantage of the Thermic effect of food where we burn some calories every time we eat something. If any of you are still worried about it you can always check with your doctor to reassure yourself or see if you have any problems that need to be addressed.

Sorry to be so long winded -- but I don't think it's anything to be worried about in a normal healthy athlete.
Happy Hypertrophy!

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (elle11 @ Aug. 11 2003,3:37)]I think that with the level of workouts that we do and many of us on low carb, we are in a depleted glycogen state and need to eat more often.
Boggy:

Quote[/b] ]between 1450 and 1650(in w/o days becaus I add sugars to post shake) cals low carb (smth like 50%pro 30%fat 20%carb) i'm male 63kg.

If one is suffering from glycoen depletion, eating more often wont fix it. Eating more carbs will.

Quote[/b] ]True, but fat and fiber do decrease the emptying time from the stomach which would ensure a more steady stream of food from the stomach into the intestine.

but only if the fat is generally intrintic. Adding liquid fats to foods gernally makes little difference to the actual GI result of that food, because liquid fats have the ability to sit on top of the food and allow everything else ot go thru before it.

Quote[/b] ]63 kg is around 140 pounds -- for cutting most people say 10 to 12 cals per pound of body weight, but I think that's on the low side for HST (just my opinion) and we would do better with 12 to 15 cals per pound. That would be 1680 to 2100 for cutting for you.

depends on what he does. I have gone down to 7kcal/lb when cutting on HST, because I do nothing else thruout the day. If his lifestyle is extremely
inactive, then he has to eat less to reduce fat.

Quote[/b] ] Plus we can take advantage of the Thermic effect of food where we burn some calories every time we eat something.

This makes you really sound like a tmagger

THe TEF is a small, and relatively unchangeable part of the total energy expenditure. eating more often doesnt make TEF any higher. Eating more protein may make a slight difference, but its still irrelevant.
IF Boggy feels poorly from eating his diet, more than likely becuase hes on the borderline between ketosis and normality. a max of around 110g/carbs per day for some people make them feel like crud while doing the higher reps (more glycogen dependant) sections of the HST cycle. But because he is getting relatively low calories to start with, he is going to struggle to get in any more energy from carbs, unless he does a weekly/biweekly carb load during the diet.

 

[Calkid]

Julios:

Quote[/b] ]Typical things about hypoglycaemia - feel tired, mildly depressed, easily irritated, lose focus. You don't necessarily feel hungry, but if you eat, the symptoms disappear quite fast.

That's it to a T. Guess I'm hypoglycemic. Now what the heck causes it?

What's funny is my friends know this; whenever I get snappy and yawny they remark, "Oh, you know how he gets when he's hungry."

 

[Calkid]

Julios:

Quote[/b] ]Typical things about hypoglycaemia - feel tired, mildly depressed, easily irritated, lose focus. You don't necessarily feel hungry, but if you eat, the symptoms disappear quite fast.

That's it to a T. Guess I'm hypoglycemic. Now what the heck causes it?

What's funny is my friends know this; whenever I get snappy and yawny they remark, "Oh, you know how he gets when he's hungry."

 

[[xeno]Julios]

If it's becoming a concern, I'd go see an experienced doctor for advice.

I've never actually read anything about hypoglycemia - those symptoms i listed are purely from observations of my own personal experiences.

Off the top of my head, perhaps you can tweak your diet to adjust glycemic indexes? I have no clue tbh.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this hypoglycemia may be a new genetic development for you, or it may be related to a change you've made in your lifestyle/diet/etc, or possibly both, where the latter reinforces the former.

Also remember that it's not a disease unless it's idiopathic, and that really means that we don't know the cause, rahter than it being a disease per se.

Here is a good page on it that i just found:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglycemia

judging by the symptom list there, it seems that what you and I have experienced is decidedly mild hypoglycemia.

Perhaps this page presents a more balanced account:

http://www.mwilliamson.com/hypoglycemia.htm

Quote[/b] ]'Hypoglycemia' is a word often used to denote a disease when it is actually only a symptom. The term means "low blood sugar" but often symptoms occur without a particularly low value. This syndrome is better defined as carbohydrate intolerance resulting in symptoms due mainly to an overzealous neuro-endocrine response. Alternatively, it is the inability to effectively use certain carbohydrate loads without adverse consequences.

 

[boggy]

so I can try to have 2 weekly carb loads where I still consume the same amount of cals but mainly derived from carbs only making sure to get 1g/lb proteins and my daily 9g of cod liver oil.
Could it work?
What kind of carbs should I have?complex for shure but what about fruit?

 

[imported_elle11]

Fruit should be fine, I'd just avoid fruit juices.

And again, treatment for idiopathic hypoglycemia is a diet that is appoximately 50% Carbs, 20% pro, and 30% fat in 6 feedings a day avoiding simple sugars.

Hope you all feel better!

 

[Calkid]

So does this mean I should never do some kind of low-carb diet?

 

[jsraaf]

Perpetual bulking/carb-up!

 

[imported_elle11]

Do you feel worse on low carb? Another question is -- are you experiencing hypoglycemia or is this just ketosis? I don't know for sure -- but you could try the 6 meals a day and see if it helps you even on low carb. You just might have an overzealous endocrine system that overshoots your insulin needs.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

I know this thread is pretty much about hypoglycemia, but from my experience as a diabetes educator, and my experience in exercise phys, I would guess that your situation is more the result of altered autonomic tone (i.e. "depressor effect of exercise&quot rather than low blood sugar.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (elle11 @ Aug. 12 2003,3:29)]And again, treatment for idiopathic hypoglycemia is a diet that is appoximately 50% Carbs, 20% pro, and 30% fat in 6 feedings a day avoiding simple sugars.

I guess the problem I have with this recommendations are a few common one

From the reference you provided, there was no mention of who designed it, or what research backing was behind it.
Also very few recommendations (especially diabetic or even to the normal public) recommend 20% protein, most are 12-15% max (altho percentages are bunk at the best of times)

The best method to see what happens if for him to go for a GTT, and then see if there is a effect. True idiopathic hypoglycemia is extremely rare, and most people who suffer symptoms of it (which are very general at the best of times). I say this becuase I suspect that Calkid is eating multiple times per day already (from memory anyway, he cannot eat enough at the best of times) and eating a high protien diet with adequate fats.

Quote[/b] ] I would guess that your situation is more the result of altered autonomic tone (i.e. "depressor effect of exercise&quot rather than low blood sugar.

I ahve seen some research on the subject area, the ones that I have seen decreased insulinemia, (with all the usual issues of short term training studies). And most are relatively short run effects, so would calkid still suffer after weekends/SD? (Which I assume he is since he said it happens all the time like clockwork)

 

[imported_elle11]

Hi Aaron,
All I can tell you is that I have worked as a clinical nutritionist for 10 years in endocrinology, general clinical nutrition and hyperalimentation. I am a Registered Dietitian and have had a lot of experience with hypoglycemia. I totally agree with your statement that

Quote[/b] ]True idiopathic hypoglycemia is extremely rare, and most people who suffer symptoms of it

The only problem with getting a GGT is that it may not tell him anything. People with idiopathic hypoglycemia rarely have any abnormality with their GGT. Blood glucose levels are normal -- it is the symptoms alone that they have, unless there is some underlying endocrine disorder.


The dietary treatment for idiopathic hypoglycemia or reactive hypoglycemia is so well established that people don't even question it anymore, it just common practice. I could try to dig for some references, but they will be so old I am afraid you may have a problem with it. It just isn't studied much anymore, because the treatment is accepted practice. I did check with an internist a few days ago and he verified that this is the best treatment for idopathic hypoglycemia.

Quote[/b] ]Also very few recommendations (especially diabetic or even to the normal public) recommend 20% protein, most are 12-15% max (altho percentages are bunk at the best of times)

If you look back at my post, I said "approximately." I'm not sure why you continue to tear apart my posts, I am just trying to help Calkid or anyone who has a problem with this because I have seen this diet work numerous times in my experience. I don't even know if he has idopathic hypoglycemia or not -- and if he goes to a doctor maybe that would help relieve some anxiety.
I think it's still a good possiblity he is just in ketosis. I am not familiar with "altered autonomic tone" which Bryan mentioned, so I can't comment on that.
Regards,

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (elle11 @ Aug. 12 2003,2:47)]The only problem with getting a GGT is that it may not tell him anything. People with idiopathic hypoglycemia rarely have any abnormality with their GGT. Blood glucose levels are normal -- it is the symptoms alone that they have, unless there is some underlying endocrine disorder.

In my country, the std method for checkin idiopathic hypoglycemia is a simple GTT, but blood sugar monitoring is useful. If the blood sugars are normal, it isnt true hypoglycemia that is the problems, but something with similar symptoms.

Quote[/b] ]I could try to dig for some references, but they will be so old I am afraid you may have a problem with it.

I wont have a problem with it, but there aint nuttin in pubmed, and with the way current guidelines are evolving (and varied throughout the world) on diabetes itself, so potentially, the old method may not be the best method.

Quote[/b] ]I'm not sure why you continue to tear apart my posts, I am just trying to help Calkid or anyone who has a problem with this because I have seen this diet work numerous times in my experience.

Not trying to tear apart posts, just being picky , I jsut dont think that it is that, or that 6x daily meals will make much of a difference on a diet with a low overall glycemic loading.

Quote[/b] ]I don't even know if he has idopathic hypoglycemia or not -- and if he goes to a doctor maybe that would help relieve some anxiety.
I think it's still a good possiblity he is just in ketosis. I am not familiar with "altered autonomic tone" which Bryan mentioned, so I can't comment on that.

from previous discussions with calkid, it aint ketosis. IF anything its because he struggles to eat enough overall, and being hungry makes him feel tired.