200, 300, 400, 500 - A quest for greatness
- Thread starter mikeynov
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Just had a second peak day. What a god awful day, everything felt like garbage, and I set zero PR's.
Well, technically one, I did a set of 7 @ 225 paused squats, and it wasn't too brutally GM'd, but meh. The bounced squats preceding it were an absolute mess, I felt like I was getting literally nothing out of the stretch reflex.
New cycle starts on Sunday, I'll have to ponder where to go from here.
Well, technically one, I did a set of 7 @ 225 paused squats, and it wasn't too brutally GM'd, but meh. The bounced squats preceding it were an absolute mess, I felt like I was getting literally nothing out of the stretch reflex.
New cycle starts on Sunday, I'll have to ponder where to go from here.
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(mikeynov @ Feb. 18 2010,12:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just had a second peak day. What a god awful day, everything felt like garbage, and I set zero PR's.
Well, technically one, I did a set of 7 @ 225 paused squats, and it wasn't too brutally GM'd, but meh. The bounced squats preceding it were an absolute mess, I felt like I was getting literally nothing out of the stretch reflex.
New cycle starts on Sunday, I'll have to ponder where to go from here.</div>
Welcome to how things usually go for the rest of us! No, wait! You actually did make another PR (to add to that ridiculous chinning PR you got the other day). And that still counts as a sucky day for you?! Relativity sure is a weird and wonderful thing.
I look forward to your next cycle.
(mikeynov @ Feb. 18 2010,12:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just had a second peak day. What a god awful day, everything felt like garbage, and I set zero PR's.
Well, technically one, I did a set of 7 @ 225 paused squats, and it wasn't too brutally GM'd, but meh. The bounced squats preceding it were an absolute mess, I felt like I was getting literally nothing out of the stretch reflex.
New cycle starts on Sunday, I'll have to ponder where to go from here.</div>
Welcome to how things usually go for the rest of us! No, wait! You actually did make another PR (to add to that ridiculous chinning PR you got the other day). And that still counts as a sucky day for you?! Relativity sure is a weird and wonderful thing.
I look forward to your next cycle.
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(_tim @ Feb. 22 2010,9:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would have loved to see you (slightly) pause that rep, Mike. The overall form looked good, but a tad rushed moving from eccentric to concentric.</div>
If I hadn't previously said it, I didn't plan on using the pauses this cycle. I was curious what I could get my bounced squat up to.
That said, it's obviously my goal to stay tight/in control, but in that context, using a "normal" cadence. By my eye, my video seems to qualify, but I'm open to the possibility that it's a little rushed.
This issue had previously popped up, I used to rather divebomb my bounced squats, and have gone to the opposite extreme at times (i.e. extremely long cadence), but am presently just aiming for "in control but natural."
(_tim @ Feb. 22 2010,9:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would have loved to see you (slightly) pause that rep, Mike. The overall form looked good, but a tad rushed moving from eccentric to concentric.</div>
If I hadn't previously said it, I didn't plan on using the pauses this cycle. I was curious what I could get my bounced squat up to.
That said, it's obviously my goal to stay tight/in control, but in that context, using a "normal" cadence. By my eye, my video seems to qualify, but I'm open to the possibility that it's a little rushed.
This issue had previously popped up, I used to rather divebomb my bounced squats, and have gone to the opposite extreme at times (i.e. extremely long cadence), but am presently just aiming for "in control but natural."
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(_tim @ Feb. 22 2010,5:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Apologies, Mike - I hadn't read that the bounce/natural movement was a focus. That said, I watched your vid a few more times. Form looked pretty good - good symmetry, solid throughout. Looked like you went slightly below parallel, which looked good too.</div>
Haha, I just revised my reply above, I sounded defensive in my first series, and that wasn't my intention.
I actually really do enjoy paused squats. In fact I find paused low bar squats to feel extremely natural.
For reasons unclear to me, I'm able to high bar pretty well with a bounce without overthinking the damn thing, which is why I was going to use it as my main lift this cycle. I can obviously try paused and/or low bar at the end to see how it transfers.
(_tim @ Feb. 22 2010,5:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Apologies, Mike - I hadn't read that the bounce/natural movement was a focus. That said, I watched your vid a few more times. Form looked pretty good - good symmetry, solid throughout. Looked like you went slightly below parallel, which looked good too.</div>
Haha, I just revised my reply above, I sounded defensive in my first series, and that wasn't my intention.
I actually really do enjoy paused squats. In fact I find paused low bar squats to feel extremely natural.
For reasons unclear to me, I'm able to high bar pretty well with a bounce without overthinking the damn thing, which is why I was going to use it as my main lift this cycle. I can obviously try paused and/or low bar at the end to see how it transfers.
Hip shifting doesn't look too bad to me on the front squats. It's there but it's no biggy. Are you wearing your uneven heels to help compensate or the Vibrams?
I watched your vid using the YouTube HTML5 player rather than the standard Flash player because it also lets me watch in slo-mo. Very handy for form checking.
(HTML5 opt-in experiment for Chrome, Safari and IE with Google Chrome Frame: http://www.youtube.com/html5 )
I watched your vid using the YouTube HTML5 player rather than the standard Flash player because it also lets me watch in slo-mo. Very handy for form checking.
(HTML5 opt-in experiment for Chrome, Safari and IE with Google Chrome Frame: http://www.youtube.com/html5 )
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(Lol @ Feb. 23 2010,6:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hip shifting doesn't look too bad to me on the front squats. It's there but it's no biggy. Are you wearing your uneven heels to help compensate or the Vibrams?
I watched your vid using the YouTube HTML5 player rather than the standard Flash player because it also lets me watch in slo-mo. Very handy for form checking.
(HTML5 opt-in experiment for Chrome, Safari and IE with Google Chrome Frame: http://www.youtube.com/html5 )</div>
For the fronts I actually used my pair of oly shoes, the older Adidas I have. For both the Vibram's and those shoes, I use a little 1/8" piece of carpeting below the left foot to try and help level things out.
(Lol @ Feb. 23 2010,6:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hip shifting doesn't look too bad to me on the front squats. It's there but it's no biggy. Are you wearing your uneven heels to help compensate or the Vibrams?
I watched your vid using the YouTube HTML5 player rather than the standard Flash player because it also lets me watch in slo-mo. Very handy for form checking.
(HTML5 opt-in experiment for Chrome, Safari and IE with Google Chrome Frame: http://www.youtube.com/html5 )</div>
For the fronts I actually used my pair of oly shoes, the older Adidas I have. For both the Vibram's and those shoes, I use a little 1/8" piece of carpeting below the left foot to try and help level things out.
High Bar Squats - 230 x 5 (side).
Might be slightly slower eccentrically than last time, just for tim
Might be slightly slower eccentrically than last time, just for tim
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(_tim @ Feb. 24 2010,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Atta boy. That's exactly what I'm talking about, Mike. The transition out of the hole was controlled. Push your numbers with that form, not that bounce crap.</div>
In my opinion, both squats were controlled, the only difference is that I slightly slowed things down a little.
Calling a bounce "crap" in a squat seems a little crazy, tim, since the level of bounce I was using in that 285 is probably representative of how the majority of the weightlifting world squats. Seriously, watch any training hall vids on the tubes...
(_tim @ Feb. 24 2010,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Atta boy. That's exactly what I'm talking about, Mike. The transition out of the hole was controlled. Push your numbers with that form, not that bounce crap.</div>
In my opinion, both squats were controlled, the only difference is that I slightly slowed things down a little.
Calling a bounce "crap" in a squat seems a little crazy, tim, since the level of bounce I was using in that 285 is probably representative of how the majority of the weightlifting world squats. Seriously, watch any training hall vids on the tubes...
_tim
Well-Known Member
Ok - to clarify - when strength training, I don't think that bouncing does anything for someone looking to develop squat strength. Competition lifters or even Oly lifters use the bounce to move into and out of the hole with momentum to push load singles. There's a massive difference there; if you want to train in an Oly fashion and see how high the numbers get, bounce away and I won't say a thing. BUT - if you're looking to push your strength-based squat numbers, control into the hole and exploding out of the hole (like you did in the most recent vid) is much more appropriate. That's where I'm coming from - I don't think bouncing is a bad thing if developing momentum-oriented squat numbers.
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(_tim @ Feb. 24 2010,1:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok - to clarify - when strength training, I don't think that bouncing does anything for someone looking to develop squat strength. Competition lifters or even Oly lifters use the bounce to move into and out of the hole with momentum to push load singles. There's a massive difference there; if you want to train in an Oly fashion and see how high the numbers get, bounce away and I won't say a thing. BUT - if you're looking to push your strength-based squat numbers, control into the hole and exploding out of the hole (like you did in the most recent vid) is much more appropriate. That's where I'm coming from - I don't think bouncing is a bad thing if developing momentum-oriented squat numbers.</div>
I guess I'm confused why you think dampening the bounce is somehow conducive to gaining strength over actually bouncing. "Momentum" comes from somewhere in this context (muscles), and I'm pretty sure people like Shane Hamman didn't "momentum" themselves to a 1000 lb squat without developing some real strength along the way.
As somebody who has hopefully established some bro credibility with the slow/controlled stuff (e.g. the 335 paused squat), I think the following are the criteria for a "good" squat:
* Back locked in rigid extension.
* Knees track in the same vertical plane along with the femur/patella/shin/feet.
* Weight stays evenly distributed on your feet, i.e. your COG lines up over the middle of your foot.
With those criteria in place, that leaves a lot of room for just how fast the eccentric can be. "Too fast" by definition means something is relaxing, generally the back position, and will show up as a rapid descent followed by the hips shooting, since tension is taken off the hamstrings. If the hips and shoulders rise at about the same pace and the back is clearly locked in extension (e.g. mine in the 285 vid), by definition, nothing has "relaxed" in a way that makes the movement unsafe or inefficient, imho.
(_tim @ Feb. 24 2010,1:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok - to clarify - when strength training, I don't think that bouncing does anything for someone looking to develop squat strength. Competition lifters or even Oly lifters use the bounce to move into and out of the hole with momentum to push load singles. There's a massive difference there; if you want to train in an Oly fashion and see how high the numbers get, bounce away and I won't say a thing. BUT - if you're looking to push your strength-based squat numbers, control into the hole and exploding out of the hole (like you did in the most recent vid) is much more appropriate. That's where I'm coming from - I don't think bouncing is a bad thing if developing momentum-oriented squat numbers.</div>
I guess I'm confused why you think dampening the bounce is somehow conducive to gaining strength over actually bouncing. "Momentum" comes from somewhere in this context (muscles), and I'm pretty sure people like Shane Hamman didn't "momentum" themselves to a 1000 lb squat without developing some real strength along the way.
As somebody who has hopefully established some bro credibility with the slow/controlled stuff (e.g. the 335 paused squat), I think the following are the criteria for a "good" squat:
* Back locked in rigid extension.
* Knees track in the same vertical plane along with the femur/patella/shin/feet.
* Weight stays evenly distributed on your feet, i.e. your COG lines up over the middle of your foot.
With those criteria in place, that leaves a lot of room for just how fast the eccentric can be. "Too fast" by definition means something is relaxing, generally the back position, and will show up as a rapid descent followed by the hips shooting, since tension is taken off the hamstrings. If the hips and shoulders rise at about the same pace and the back is clearly locked in extension (e.g. mine in the 285 vid), by definition, nothing has "relaxed" in a way that makes the movement unsafe or inefficient, imho.
_tim
Well-Known Member
There's no doubt that you've developed serious credibility with your lifting, Mike. I agree with your assessment as to what good squat form is. I personally am a stickler for rep speed as well; that was pounded into me early on and again as recently as about a year back when I trained with a local strength coach. I've seen a couple guys wreck their backs and knees simultaneously when trying to manipulate the bounce to get a load moving. One guy actually blew out his left knee - and technically speaking, he followed the rules of form that you laid out above. I have no doubt in my mind that a tremendous number of people reading our respective banter will choose a side, and that's perfectly fine. I'm writing from what I've seen and what I've been taught - that's all. The best thing about this addiction is that there are more than one way to get to the same end. This is no different. I'll be less harsh on this particular subject going forward - I truly didn't mean to stir up any sort of question about your credibility.
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(_tim @ Feb. 24 2010,6:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There's no doubt that you've developed serious credibility with your lifting, Mike. I agree with your assessment as to what good squat form is. I personally am a stickler for rep speed as well; that was pounded into me early on and again as recently as about a year back when I trained with a local strength coach. I've seen a couple guys wreck their backs and knees simultaneously when trying to manipulate the bounce to get a load moving. One guy actually blew out his left knee - and technically speaking, he followed the rules of form that you laid out above. I have no doubt in my mind that a tremendous number of people reading our respective banter will choose a side, and that's perfectly fine. I'm writing from what I've seen and what I've been taught - that's all. The best thing about this addiction is that there are more than one way to get to the same end. This is no different. I'll be less harsh on this particular subject going forward - I truly didn't mean to stir up any sort of question about your credibility.</div>
Tim, you are a very cool guy, I will never take a disagreement between us and turn it into some kind of war of words or hostility.
To be honest, I don't know what the answer is here. I suspect a non-bounce probably IS safer on the knees, though in terms of gaining strength, if I were forced to vote, I would guess it would either make no practical difference, or possibly slightly hurt relative to a "natural" speed with those conditions met.
Example, that dude John Broz trains worked himself up to like a 770 bounced squat with a pretty fast turnaround (dare I say faster than mine):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xFm9q1HBKY
Now, there's no way in hell he could pause that weight. However, how about like 650, or 600? We would probably both agree he could do that.
So, imho, strength will tend to scale exactly like that - if you raise your top squat #'s in halfway reasonable form, even if things get a bit ballistic, your "absolutely perfect cadence and/or paused form" goes along for the ride, it's simply never as high. Maybe it's 85% or 90% or whatever, and that relationship will tend to hold over time as you get stronger.
On the flip side, if you don't actively practice the bounce, it's my experience that you kind of lose the ability to do so, i.e. there is an actual "skill" in redirecting those forces, and this skill needs practice. So in terms of competition aspirations or moving as much weight as possible, obviously, you'd want to practice this bounce.
Where does that leave us? Well, I dunno - I can see an argument for keeping a brief pause for most things, as I doubt it will hurt your strength accrual much, and might be a little safer. On the flip side, letting form be "natural" after considerations are met for basic safety seems to give you more leeway to accomodating things for yourself. What the bro's call "making it work for you."
I.e. as the going gets tough, a person will "naturally" add a little more bounce. This, in a sense, allows a spontaneous change in form that allows you to literally do more reps or lift more weight, which you could argue actually INCREASES the stimulus relative to not having done so. I.e. setting too many limitations on "acceptable" form, in a way, doesn't give you the ability to modify things in a way which might actually increase the stimulus. I think that's the danger of the HIT-ish mindset of becoming TOO focused on cadence.
When I trained people, I did want to see control, but I think a too-fast eccentric, by definition, will almost always show up as "bad form" in something other than how fast you're descending. Knees cave in, hips shoot, back position is lost, etc. I think keeping THAT stuff constant is arguably more important, both for safety and for getting the most out of it, and as long as that's in place, not worrying too much about the minutia.
(_tim @ Feb. 24 2010,6:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There's no doubt that you've developed serious credibility with your lifting, Mike. I agree with your assessment as to what good squat form is. I personally am a stickler for rep speed as well; that was pounded into me early on and again as recently as about a year back when I trained with a local strength coach. I've seen a couple guys wreck their backs and knees simultaneously when trying to manipulate the bounce to get a load moving. One guy actually blew out his left knee - and technically speaking, he followed the rules of form that you laid out above. I have no doubt in my mind that a tremendous number of people reading our respective banter will choose a side, and that's perfectly fine. I'm writing from what I've seen and what I've been taught - that's all. The best thing about this addiction is that there are more than one way to get to the same end. This is no different. I'll be less harsh on this particular subject going forward - I truly didn't mean to stir up any sort of question about your credibility.</div>
Tim, you are a very cool guy, I will never take a disagreement between us and turn it into some kind of war of words or hostility.
To be honest, I don't know what the answer is here. I suspect a non-bounce probably IS safer on the knees, though in terms of gaining strength, if I were forced to vote, I would guess it would either make no practical difference, or possibly slightly hurt relative to a "natural" speed with those conditions met.
Example, that dude John Broz trains worked himself up to like a 770 bounced squat with a pretty fast turnaround (dare I say faster than mine):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xFm9q1HBKY
Now, there's no way in hell he could pause that weight. However, how about like 650, or 600? We would probably both agree he could do that.
So, imho, strength will tend to scale exactly like that - if you raise your top squat #'s in halfway reasonable form, even if things get a bit ballistic, your "absolutely perfect cadence and/or paused form" goes along for the ride, it's simply never as high. Maybe it's 85% or 90% or whatever, and that relationship will tend to hold over time as you get stronger.
On the flip side, if you don't actively practice the bounce, it's my experience that you kind of lose the ability to do so, i.e. there is an actual "skill" in redirecting those forces, and this skill needs practice. So in terms of competition aspirations or moving as much weight as possible, obviously, you'd want to practice this bounce.
Where does that leave us? Well, I dunno - I can see an argument for keeping a brief pause for most things, as I doubt it will hurt your strength accrual much, and might be a little safer. On the flip side, letting form be "natural" after considerations are met for basic safety seems to give you more leeway to accomodating things for yourself. What the bro's call "making it work for you."
I.e. as the going gets tough, a person will "naturally" add a little more bounce. This, in a sense, allows a spontaneous change in form that allows you to literally do more reps or lift more weight, which you could argue actually INCREASES the stimulus relative to not having done so. I.e. setting too many limitations on "acceptable" form, in a way, doesn't give you the ability to modify things in a way which might actually increase the stimulus. I think that's the danger of the HIT-ish mindset of becoming TOO focused on cadence.
When I trained people, I did want to see control, but I think a too-fast eccentric, by definition, will almost always show up as "bad form" in something other than how fast you're descending. Knees cave in, hips shoot, back position is lost, etc. I think keeping THAT stuff constant is arguably more important, both for safety and for getting the most out of it, and as long as that's in place, not worrying too much about the minutia.
My 2¢ from my experiments with pausing:
Pausing forces more TUT in a position where you are going to be weakest (ie. in the hole). If I'm lowering in a second, pausing for a second, and then rising as quickly as possible (maybe a second or more), then roughly a third of my time has been spent where the strain on the majority of the leg and glute muscle tissue is at its highest.
Pausing makes the drive out of the hole harder so you are forced to work with a little less load for the same number of reps. So, rep time, and therefore TUT may be increased, but it's at the expense of a little strain (that's good strain, not injury strain).
Using the stretch reflex to help with the turnaround definitely allows for more load to be lifted or for more reps to be performed with the same load. If more reps can be performed with the same load then some of the benefits of increased TUT, due to pausing, are rendered moot.
When I first saw Mikey's fast-turnaround squats a few years ago, I was pretty surprised because I had always erred on the side of caution. My eccentrics were much slower but I always tried to drive up as fast as possible and use a ham and glute bounce to aid the turnaround. I figured that a fast eccentric would probably get me injured sooner or later. But I also knew that Mike was doing this without getting injured so I needed to improve my understanding.
Then Ripp's SS book came along and helped clarify things. I also watched a lot of Oly lifters and it became clear that if you know what you are doing and have trained for a fast turnaround - such that your tendon strength is perfectly capable of dealing with the extra stress - then there is no relaxing of any of the muscles supporting knee flexion, it merely appears that way to the onlooker. High tension can be achieved this way and relatively safely - there is always some inherent risk in lifting heavy weights. Consistent form is vital for a faster eccentric so new trainees need to get their groove absolutely nailed before they increase overall rep speed. My guess is that most knee injuries occur when form drops off due to fatigue (and the trainee continues to push for more reps) or through attempting to lift a load that has not been trained for (so trying to increase your squat by 10% (or more) just because your mates are watching).
Having practiced both paused and 'hammy bounce' squats, I now 'get' both variations. They both have their place in training and I will always practice both as long as I am able to do so. My tendency is still to lower heavier loads (>75-80% 1RM) much more slowly than lighter (~60% 1RM) loads. (I don't like the term 'under control' because that should always be the case even if the eccentric looks quick.)
Okay, that's about 4¢!
Pausing forces more TUT in a position where you are going to be weakest (ie. in the hole). If I'm lowering in a second, pausing for a second, and then rising as quickly as possible (maybe a second or more), then roughly a third of my time has been spent where the strain on the majority of the leg and glute muscle tissue is at its highest.
Pausing makes the drive out of the hole harder so you are forced to work with a little less load for the same number of reps. So, rep time, and therefore TUT may be increased, but it's at the expense of a little strain (that's good strain, not injury strain).
Using the stretch reflex to help with the turnaround definitely allows for more load to be lifted or for more reps to be performed with the same load. If more reps can be performed with the same load then some of the benefits of increased TUT, due to pausing, are rendered moot.
When I first saw Mikey's fast-turnaround squats a few years ago, I was pretty surprised because I had always erred on the side of caution. My eccentrics were much slower but I always tried to drive up as fast as possible and use a ham and glute bounce to aid the turnaround. I figured that a fast eccentric would probably get me injured sooner or later. But I also knew that Mike was doing this without getting injured so I needed to improve my understanding.
Then Ripp's SS book came along and helped clarify things. I also watched a lot of Oly lifters and it became clear that if you know what you are doing and have trained for a fast turnaround - such that your tendon strength is perfectly capable of dealing with the extra stress - then there is no relaxing of any of the muscles supporting knee flexion, it merely appears that way to the onlooker. High tension can be achieved this way and relatively safely - there is always some inherent risk in lifting heavy weights. Consistent form is vital for a faster eccentric so new trainees need to get their groove absolutely nailed before they increase overall rep speed. My guess is that most knee injuries occur when form drops off due to fatigue (and the trainee continues to push for more reps) or through attempting to lift a load that has not been trained for (so trying to increase your squat by 10% (or more) just because your mates are watching).
Having practiced both paused and 'hammy bounce' squats, I now 'get' both variations. They both have their place in training and I will always practice both as long as I am able to do so. My tendency is still to lower heavier loads (>75-80% 1RM) much more slowly than lighter (~60% 1RM) loads. (I don't like the term 'under control' because that should always be the case even if the eccentric looks quick.)
Okay, that's about 4¢!