Contradictions in HSN Nutrition

[SirLancelotX]

Okay here goes. In the article, Eating For Size it says to use .8-1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Simple enough.

The FAQ also says .8-1g protein per pound. It says to have atleast this amount though. But a couple paragraphs later, 15% of cals from protein is the best amount for maximum gains. And then a little bit later he says skinny guys 15% cals from prot, normal or fat guys 20-25% cals from protein. I mean cmon what one? He just gave me like 6 different options for how much protein to take.

Later, we get into carbs in your pre/post WO shakes. It is stated to take your post WO shake without, or with less carbs. But later on when he summarizes how to gain mass, he says 1g/kg of your post WO shake is to be carbs.

Theres several other examples but i don't have all night. Fact is, as much as i want to put together a program nutritionally and training wise, i keep hitting contradictions that are confusing me.

Lance

 

[jsraaf]

Lance, what are your goals for your training/nutrition currently?

 

[Mindwraith]

This is very easily explained, no contridiction at all. It's mathematics.

First you say that .8-1g per pound of body weight. This is true. If I am 200 pounds I will eat 200g of protein. Furthermore if I want to gain weight, 200g of protein has to be 15% of my calories...which implies that the other 85% have to come from carbs and fat. Well I dont want to eat more than 85g of fat so the carbs must be over 400g to make protein 15% and not 30%.

So just because it says 15% doesn't mean take in less than 200g of protein, it means take in more than 400g of carbs.
Yes, to grow, I can attest from very recent experience that 15% protein and the rest carbs and fat (around 3600 cals for me) is a good level for growth.

When you cut however, protein should still be at or around 200g, however it should then be 30-40% instead of 15%, meaning carbs will be much, much lower.

EDIT: Try http://www.fitday.com You can track your calories there meticulously and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Just because you don't have all the info to put a statement in context, doesn't make it a contradiction.

1) 15% calories from protein is the best way to store the most energy. As protein goes higher or lower, thermogenesis increases and more energy that is dissipated as heat. This leads to slower weight gain.

The fatter you are, the more thermogenesis you want, so increase your protein and decrease your carbs.

1 gram per pound is sufficient for any natural lifter and "most" lifters on test.

2) My comments on carbohydrate timing are based on a model explaining the ultimate fate of ingested protein with or without carbs. A higher percentage makes it into the pteriphery without carbs. However, this may or may not lead to greater amino acid uptake. These comments have created more confusion than anything i think I have ever written. So...combine carbs pre- and Post-workout with your protein for the greatest anabolic effect. If fat loss is desired, combine carbs only with post workout drink. This allows (facilitates) mobilization of fat stores from your workout.

 

[jsraaf]

Quote[/b] (Mindwraith @ Aug. 12 2003,8:56)]This is very easily explained, no contridiction at all. It's mathematics.
First you say that .8-1g per pound of body weight. This is true. If I am 200 pounds I will eat 200g of protein. Furthermore if I want to gain weight, 200g of protein has to be 15% of my calories...which implies that the other 85% have to come from carbs and fat. Well I dont want to eat more than 85g of fat so the carbs must be over 400g to make protein 15% and not 30%.
So just because it says 15% doesn't mean take in less than 200g of protein, it means take in more than 400g of carbs.
Yes, to grow, I can attest from very recent experience that 15% protein and the rest carbs and fat (around 3600 cals for me) is a good level for growth.
When you cut however, protein should still be at or around 200g, however it should then be 30-40% instead of 15%, meaning carbs will be much, much lower.

If I understood correctly:

15% of 3600 calories = 540 cals = 135g protein. Do you weigh 135lb?

If we take the 200lb person, his protein intake should be 200g, which is 800 cals. If that's 15% of total intake, his total would be. . . 5333 cals.

Ain't no way. Can you say "fattie"?

I suspect what is actually[\i] intended here is to first derive your proper total calorie intake level. For me, around 175lb, it's about 2500 (possibly even less due to sedentary pencil-neck day job). Then, break it down:

Fat: 25% = 625 cals = 69g

Protein: 15% = 375 cals = 94g. Here, for simplicity, I can just go with 175g = 700 cals (though 15% may be ideal, BW is easier to remember)

Carbs: 2500 - (625+700) = 1175 cals = 294g

This is my understanding of how it works. If I'm wrong I've grossly misunderstood the whole dietary approach thing.

 

[micmic]

Lance, I suppose that you are more confused than before asking

Without freting much:

- Take adequate protein, that is 1gr per pound of lean bodyweight. You probably don't need more than 0.7-0.8gr per pound when bulking, but when cutting you should stick with 1gr/pound.

- Take adequate good fats, mainly monounsaturated and some polyunsaturated/saturated. At least 30-40gr per day. Don't forget EFAs.

- Take the rest of your calories as good carbs. You know them... the less processed, the better. Don't forget lots of vegetables.

You can't fail with these basic rules, and your growth will not be compromised in any way.

 

[Blade]

Quote[/b] ]I suspect what is actually[\i] intended here is to first derive your proper total calorie intake level. For me, around 175lb, it's about 2500 (possibly even less due to sedentary pencil-neck day job). Then, break it down

Remember that Bryan was referring to a diet for optimal and fastest growth. This would entail calories at 20+ per lbs of bodyweight. So for you, maybe 3500-4000kcals, which would be 20-22kcals/lbs - 15% of which is 600kcals/150g or 0.9-1g per lbs of LEAN bodyweight.

But in the same vein as micmic:

18-20kcals/lbs of bodyweight
1g/lbs protein
20-25% from fats
remainder in carbs

 

[SirLancelotX]

Hmmmm .... well originally i just read the Eat for Gains article and did this. Bodyweight x 16 to get calories i should be consuming, which was ~ 3100. Then i did 195 g protein because i weigh 192-195 but figured higher the better (common knowledge i guess that i've read throughout the years). Then i heard to do 15% instead, did 15% and got a MUCH lower amount of protein. I'm still SLIGHTLY confused. I'm going to post some pictures to show my fat level though (i don't know bf%).
I'm 17.5 , 192-195lbs. 5'10.5''
Here goes.
Rear Double Biceps
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachm....1725270
Rear Lat Spread
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachm....1725275
Front Relaxed
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachm....1725223

 

[SirLancelotX]

Ok heres what i've put together, from my pictures, stats, and math tell me if i'm allright with this.

Calories 3900 (195lb x 20)
Protein 195 g 780 Cals (20%)
Fat 108 g 975 Cals (25%)
Carbs 536 g 2195 Cals (55%)

My only question although this diet seems fine, is that i want the maximum and optimal growth. =) Therefore i'd rather eat the 15% protein or whatever. I don't know, tell me what you think of this? That's an aweful lot of calories though.

Lance

 

[Mindwraith]

Allow me to explain further.

1g of protein is 4 calories
1g of carbs is 4 calories
1g of fat is 9 calories

3600 is just a round number off the top of my head based on my bodyweight x 18.

200 x 18 = 3600.

So if I eat 3600 calories one day, optimally I would I get:

200g protein - 800 cals - 22%
510g carbs - 2040 cals - 56%
85g fat - 765 cals - 21%

Now that isn't exactly 15%, but its 3600 cals. You don't have to be perfect.

Let me post some of my daily nutritional information from Fitday.

Cutting (losing fat):

Today (end of day projection):

Total: 1863
Fat: 54 489 28%
Sat: 22 196 11%
Poly: 4 37 2%
Mono: 10 91 5%
Carbs: 166 549 31%
Fiber: 29 0 0%
Protein: 178 712 41%

Bulking:

July 8th:

Total: 3555
Fat: 119 1071 31%
Sat: 53 479 14%
Poly: 1 10 0%
Mono: 6 57 2%
Carbs: 406 1546 45%
Fiber: 19 0 0%
Protein: 213 852 25%

Fat was too high, carbs could have been higher, protein was 13 higher, but it worked well enough. It still takes a lot of practice and experimentation to hit 3600 cals and actually have better numbers like my first ideal example. But practice makes perfect, I finally got my cutting diet down to perfection.

 

[jsraaf]

1-->

Quote[/b] (Blade @ Aug. 12 2003,12

1)]Remember that Bryan was referring to a diet for optimal and fastest growth. This would entail calories at 20+ per lbs of bodyweight.

Right, and I'll be the first to admit that I did not have my bulking diet totally dialed in last time around, but I believe there is no way I can consume those calories & not end up looking like a flabby train wreck.

Everyone is different (the second most commonly used term here, apart from "Depends&quot so we all have to find what works for us, using those "guidelines." Like Mindwraith said, "practice makes perfect."

I just keep reading post after post from people saying "I am doing this... eating 20x BW... and now I'm fat. WTF?"

 

[SirLancelotX]

Ok maybe i'm just getting in over my head here and should simplify it for myself. I just did this now.

Weight x 18
1g protein per pound
23% fat
Rest Carbs

I end up with:
195g Protein 90g fats 475g carbs

Will see what happens, i'm still young so i can have more leeway than some of the older farts. =) Haha, didn't mean to offend anyone, just a little fun.

Lance

 

[jsraaf]

Lance, you are absolutely right. No problem. Go for it, see how it goes & adjust accordingly. If you start getting too much fat (you may also gain water weight w/ all the carbs) just cut back a little. Slow & steady weight gain will = less fat gain. Faster you try to gain, faster the fat piles on.

Good luck.

 

[SirLancelotX]

Thank you everyone for all the help. I'm going to post my diet plan during school and see what you all think, it's going to be a different thread though.

Lance

 

[Ruhl]

I assume fat must be about the same % as protein, about 15%. This means that 70% of cals must come from carbs?!

Could someone put carbs/pro/fat in grams per pound instead of %s for bulking and cutting? It would make things simpler.

 

[Aaron_F]

this is the problem with percentages.

Protien ~2g/kg (or 1g/lb is simple)
Carbs 4-6g/kg (whatever this is in lbs)
Fats ~varies....around 1g/kg is a nice starting place


this will still work out around 15 - 18kcal/lb bodyweight..

Of course using the figure off lbm will give a lower estimate than if you use total bodyweight.

 

[Ruhl]

Everyone is saying take this or that amount of protein and fat. Which amount? .7, .8, .9, or 1 gram protein per pound bodyweight?

Is your diet supposed to be calculated on lean muscle mass?

 

[Mindwraith]

I go by 1g per lb lean mass when cutting and 1g/lb total weight when bulking, dunno its not anything set in stone.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

I promise I am not writing this to add any confusion.

When considering that "everybody is different" keep in mind that although this may be true, there are general rules of thumb that you can and should depend on being true. Here are a few:

1) The leaner you are, the higher your "Partitioning Ratio" (P:Ratio). This means more energy from the diet will be directed towards lean body mass. The opposite is true if you are fat.

2) The P:Ratio also works in the same way while dieting. The leaner you are, the more lean mass you will lose while dieting. The opposite is true if you are fat.

3) The higher your calories above caloric balance, the greater the percentage of dietary fat that will be stored as fat. Diets such as the Isocaloric-Zone are not a good idea when eating a lot of food. The reason is that your carbs will more than meet your energy needs and all the fat is then stored. When calories are deficient however, the lack of carbs prevents significant fat storage and even facilitates fat loss.

4) The more calories you burn, the more you can eat. All exercise creates an anabolic environment when calories are sufficient. So it is better to eat more, and then use a little cardio to keep the fat in check, than to simply eat less.

5) There is a difference between weight gain, and lean mass gain. Just because 15% calories from protein is the most efficient ratio for weight gain (meaning the least energy loss), it does not mean it is the best for every person in every situation. For a very tall guy who is very lean and has trouble putting on any size and/or weight, keep protein lower in relation to carbs. For a shorter stocky guy who isn't terribly lean (12-14%) you should keep protein higher to keep the Thermic Effect of Food (TEF) higher.

6) Protein is always more anabolic when combined with carbs. [NOTE] HSN Primer and Driver don't have carbs in order to allow you to control your own carb intake, not because it is better without carbs.

7) It is better to significantly increase calories incrementally rather than over night. And extra 100 calories added to the diet each week is a good place to start. This allows a modest adjustment of the body's metabolic rate to increase at a closer rate to the increase in caloric intake. This helps you avoid some fat gain in the beginning.

*8) Using additional testosterone significantly increases a person's P:Ratio. I have seen lean guys weighing 230-240 able to consume 4,500-5,000 calories per day and still get leaner each week unless they pushed the calories even higher. This is extremely unusual for a natural lifter, so unusual I have never seen it happen. My comments on diet are always based on the assumption that an individual is training naturally.