Cutting with HST

You guys must be getting sick of my preaching by now... Lol

I'd go back to 280 or 250g of carbs again and stay with the IF with ALL your carbs post workout... None during the day. And also, no low glycemic carbs, especially close to bed time. You do not want your body still processing carbs all night long!
I'd also be targeting at least 3 liters of water a day and caffeine... 400 to 600mg 1hr pre workout, 400mg mid day.
From what I've read, and this is my opinion, and everyone is gonna have their own, large carbs for breakfast are making you fat. When you wake up, you're naturally hungry... But this is when your insulin sensitivity is highest. Meaning your body is gonna burn what it needs (not much, you just woke up!!) and shuttle off excess carbs into your fats cells.... And do this efficiently because of your sensitivity. Late afternoon, sensitivity wanes...
After workout, your muscles are ready for uptake, and will take priority over your fat cells. Feed them!
Remember, this feeding fuels the next days workout...this is why I prefer A/B splits and workout 4 to 6 times a week.

Have a coffee and go to work. Have another coffee... For late lunch, a cup of cottage cheese, small amount of almonds, some fish oil... I also sip on green tea all morning and afternoon.
Hold off your workouts until 4pm...have 20g protein powder with a table spoon of coconut milk with your caffeine 1 hr before workout. After workout, pound down those carbs! Then get your protein... And snack (protein rich) til bedtime to get your calories.
Do this for the rest of the month and tell us how it's going.
charr said:
On the intermittent fasting I am currently consuming most of my carbs after workout or first meal of the day. Carbs on first meal are 150g. 50g on the last meal. The problem I am also facing is that I am also rapidly losing strength on such low calories. It's like the calories are so low that I am losing strength but still not low enough to be losing fat. Going lower is difficult and I imagine will probably affect my strength even more.

With regard to timing carbs I was also doing IF when bulking consuming about 280g carbs on my first meal and 80g on my second. It still resulted in me gaining alot of fat.
Click to expand...
 
I don't know, charr...maybe you should see a doctor. Test your thyroid, GH and insulin levels too. If you are really doing everything right with no results you may have some health issue unknown.

Look, I'm no way trying to scare you. I only think you have to analyze other aspects.
 
Well, I have a doubt. Is it OK to train twice a week when cutting? I just add another set to some lifts when it happens.

I'm really out of time these days.

Other thing is that I'm doing well on some lifts and I feel that I can comfortably increase some loads even at the cutting. Should I do it?

I know there is risk of injuries and CNS fatigue but the benefits are greater than the risks?
 
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wungun said:
You guys must be getting sick of my preaching by now... Lol

I'd go back to 280 or 250g of carbs again and stay with the IF with ALL your carbs post workout... None during the day. And also, no low glycemic carbs, especially close to bed time. You do not want your body still processing carbs all night long!
I'd also be targeting at least 3 liters of water a day and caffeine... 400 to 600mg 1hr pre workout, 400mg mid day.
From what I've read, and this is my opinion, and everyone is gonna have their own, large carbs for breakfast are making you fat. When you wake up, you're naturally hungry... But this is when your insulin sensitivity is highest. Meaning your body is gonna burn what it needs (not much, you just woke up!!) and shuttle off excess carbs into your fats cells.... And do this efficiently because of your sensitivity. Late afternoon, sensitivity wanes...
After workout, your muscles are ready for uptake, and will take priority over your fat cells. Feed them!
Remember, this feeding fuels the next days workout...this is why I prefer A/B splits and workout 4 to 6 times a week.

Have a coffee and go to work. Have another coffee... For late lunch, a cup of cottage cheese, small amount of almonds, some fish oil... I also sip on green tea all morning and afternoon.
Hold off your workouts until 4pm...have 20g protein powder with a table spoon of coconut milk with your caffeine 1 hr before workout. After workout, pound down those carbs! Then get your protein... And snack (protein rich) til bedtime to get your calories.
Do this for the rest of the month and tell us how it's going.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of things not quite accurate in there.


@charr - get some bloodwork done.

And again - do you want to get bigger first? Or lose more fat first?

If it's the former, stop being afraid of gaining fat. If it's the latter, then let's put you on a diet with proven efficacy.
 
Explain how you think carbohydrates are converted to lipids stored within fat cells. Once you've learned that, you'll see why that assertion is not quite accurate.

There is not a strict correlation between insulin sensitivity and hunger. Hell, there's 3bn people in Asia you can refer to for that one.
 
Jester said:
Explain how you think carbohydrates are converted to lipids stored within fat cells. Once you've learned that, you'll see why that assertion is not quite accurate.

There is not a strict correlation between insulin sensitivity and hunger. Hell, there's 3bn people in Asia you can refer to for that one.
Click to expand...
I never meant to infer a corollation between hunger and insulin...
I was just stating sensitivity is high in the AM and when you wake up, you're hungry.

de novo lipogenesis... Where the body turns non-fat food into fat for fat storage. I know it isn't a very efficient process... Your body would rather take fat and store it as fat. But I also understand that Glycogen storage capacity in man is approximately 15 g/kg body weight and can accommodate a gain of approximately 500 g before net lipid synthesis contributes to increasing body fat mass. When the glycogen stores are saturated, massive intakes of carbohydrate are disposed of by high carbohydrate-oxidation rates and substantial de novo lipid synthesis (cut and paste)

Before lipogenesis occurs, your muscles and liver will soak up excess glycogen for energy storage. This is why it's important (to me!) to backload after a workout. Your muscles have glucose receptors that are "activated" by strenuous use and can soak up glucose without the added need for insulin to do the job.

Spiking your insulin is good for your muscles with large amounts of carbs... You will see the effect on your muscles in the mirror! For every gram of glucose your muscles take in, they also take in 3 grams of water.... Not to mention amino uptake.
insulin is also anabolic in that regard...
And you will have power to get thru those workouts, even on a cal deficit. Not just get thru them, but grow and increase strength.


This is what I know of lipid storage...
 

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Yes ... and the numbers of carbs that are being discussed here are not 'massive', in any sense or use of the word.

The issue for @charr comes down to metabolic rate, hormones, caloric intake and caloric expenditure. You aren't losing or gaining weight by changing meal times. Thermodynamics always wins.
 
Hormones and metabolic rate directly apply to what I've been saying all along...
GH, cortisol, insulin, testosterone all have daily micro-cycles, and the "diet" I've been going on about effectively works with these cycles.
 
@charr... I don't want to spook you either, but some people, male and female alike, have hormone imbalances... What you describe could be an excess of estrogen and/or low levels of testosterone helping contribute to the fat storing where it's storing on you.
 
Just as an aside, insulin is not only anabolic in certain situations. Insulin is always anabolic. It is the most anabolic hormone in the entire body.
 
Thanks Totz... I remember reading that now.
But even being anabolic, there are both negative and positive aspects to it, as we all know...
Filling fats cells is the biggest concern!
 
Yeah, insulin doesn't differentiate between muscle and fat. This is why using extraneous insulin isn't necessarily a good thing. Sure, you can build muscle faster but you build fat faster as well.

I think worrying about insulin spikes and insulin sensitivity isn't something most need to be concerned with. Unless you are at 10% bodyfat trying to get down to 5%, when hormonal changes and such begin to make a huge impact, that kind of thing isn't going to even be noticeable to the person dieting down from 20% to 15%.

I am extremely dubious of any diet method that promises fat loss without a calorie deficit and without counting calories. You should at the very least be estimating calories as closely as you can.
 
I personally log everything I eat on my Lose It app, including my weight every morning.

I know the Backloading claims are sketchy, to say the least. Of course, he is also trying to sell you something, so...
I read it, took what I needed from it and adapted it to realistically fit my needs. With that regard, I do know it works as claimed for me.

Calories aside, the IF aspect of it... No carbs from bedtime until 5pm the next day for example...
You're obviously running off fat burning, maybe using up some glycogen stores, correct? Now if you consume maintenance calories after 5pm, would you not, from that alone, recomp your body? Less overall fat in the long term?
 
The problem with backloading is that carbs after workout don't all go to muscle. You can't just eat whatever you want after your workout and expect to get no fat gain. As I was trying to suggest with the insulin post, this hormone does not care that you are trying to be a bodybuilder. It just knows "hey, we got tons of incoming energy, better store that shit."

Not to mention that the amount of muscle you can build in the few hours of the postworkout until bed time window can only be measured in milligrams, whereas you are talking about consuming a couple hundred grams of carbs. Only so much of that can be shuttled into the muscle. Once liver glycogen and muscle glycogen is full, whatever extra you ate is going into fat stores. It is important to realize that the body is always breaking down proteins and fats and it is always synthesizing both of those as well. When we lift, we temporarily increase protein synthesis and if you were fasting before you lifted and if you are on a calorie deficit, you are lucky to get the PS response high enough to maintain the muscle you have i.e. rebuilt what was lost earlier that day, ending up at a net zero loss/gain. You also will need some amount to assist with that will be used for daily BMR functions like supporting your organs, brain, etc. Anything above that (you will need to magically know somehow exactly how many carbs that should have been) will be shuttled into fat cells for storage, rebuilding some of the fat that you lost earlier that day. If you are lucky, you end up at a net loss of fat, but overshoot it and you will end up at a net zero loss/gain or worse, a gain in fat. Because insulin, that's why.

Of course if you ate a calorie deficit that day, then that's not a huge concern, since the most likely scenario will be a net loss of fat and (hopefully) a zero loss/gain of muscle (obviously you will lost some _lean mass_ no matter what you do.) But you'd still be better off getting more of those calories as protein (very hard to convert protein into sugar in humans) since that helps keep you sated and protein has a mildly thermic effect on the body.
 
You're very knowledgeable! Lol
A couple of things... Your body is less sensitive to insulin in the late afternoon. Your muscle and fat cells are able to take up glucose without the help of insulin... Glute receptors...
Your body can take up a LOT of carbs-glucose for liver/muscle before fat storage, as long as it isn't an excessive caloric amount total.
Therefore, after a workout, your muscle take priority to the glucose...
Also, feeding the body protien and fats during the fasting part of the day to help stave off muscle breakdown...
Thoughts?
I really think you should try this Totz!
Maybe it'll inspire you to write a new volume on workout nutrition!
:)
 
Lifting increases insulin sensitivity, just in case you didn't know. So... being less insulin sensitive in the afternoon is irrelevant if you are lifting then. Also, you really won't be able to take up that many carbs for glycogen replenishment unless you are doing depletion workouts or have been on less than 50 grams of carbs for at least a few days.
 
I guess I should mention that I have actually followed a protocol similar to this in the past. I didn't really get any different results than I did from a standard IF setup. I've successfully done a natural (i.e. drug-free) recomp while doing IF and while I did cycle carbs during that, it wasn't this protocol that you are referring to.

For cutting fat, I will always recommend a RFL style diet first. Recomps are for people too scared of hunger to embrace the rapid stripping of fat you get with a RFL diet. But that's okay, not everyone is hard core enough to endure RFL.
 
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