"Eating fat makes you fat"

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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">if you are eating 3 square tahst 450 grams a day!!! That is a LOT of carbs! I don´t even consume that much after a marathon where I may have burned 6000 +calories.</div>

i am of course bulking
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i hope you're not suggesting for me to eat less
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what are your recommendation for bulking nutrition? just curious, cheers
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 26 2008,11:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You make another assumption. This time about what I rely on for my source of information. You can't possibly know that. It's a more reasonable position to &quot;give estimates&quot; than to claim outright that you know what our ancestors would have eaten. You still can't claim to know what experts know or what our ancestors ate. This means our estimates can be off by any amount. In other words, it's not a certainty.</div>

but YOU'VE claimed that cutting the carbs out of the diet of an obese person WILL solve the obesity problem for them!!! that to me was not an estimation, but a clear-cut claim.</div>
Yes I did. But I don't see how that relates to the other posts.
 
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(drpierredebs @ May 26 2008,11:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Four!!!!!!</div>
Incidentally, the correct term is Fore!
 
Okay, thanks for the heads up!


Someone please ban this turd.

Fore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes I did. But I don't see how that relates to the other posts.</div>

this relates to what you said about what ancestors eat in that, the claim about ancestors eating certain foods isn't based on evidence, but on an educated guess, or maybe even historical evidence actually, who knows at this point
you've claimed that cutting carbs from an obese person's diet will eliminate their obesity. have you taken an obese individual, and done this? or read of fool-proof studies? you are making claims, just like you said peta69 was. you are making a claim, but then accusing peta69 of making claims based only on possibility.

that's how it relates.
 
Lets be clear that my &quot;claims&quot; were never to say I know exactly what each ancestor ate. For those who can read, I stated that we know what types of foods they ate, as these were the only foods available to humanity before the agricultural revolution some 10000yrs ago. The quantities of these foods varied on the individual, the geographic location, time of year, etc. Loren Cordain gave some figures based on hunter gatherers of more modern times, of 65% animal foods, 35% vegetables/fruit/nuts/berries/roots and tubers. This was an estimate from the data they gathered. Some groups were at one extreme (Inuit) and other groups a more carb-based diet. I'm NOT making unsubstatiable claims. This has been well researched, and again, estimates. Just as I originally stated.
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 26 2008,11:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes I did. But I don't see how that relates to the other posts.</div>

this relates to what you said about what ancestors eat in that, the claim about ancestors eating certain foods isn't based on evidence, but on an educated guess, or maybe even historical evidence actually, who knows at this point
you've claimed that cutting carbs from an obese person's diet will eliminate their obesity. have you taken an obese individual, and done this? or read of fool-proof studies? you are making claims, just like you said peta69 was. you are making a claim, but then accusing peta69 of making claims based only on possibility.

that's how it relates.</div>
I see. I based that claim on the effect of carbs on blood glucose, on the effect of blood glucose on insulin and on the effect of insulin on adipose tissue. These are observed facts. To paraphrase another poster, there is no contest of these facts in the scientific papers.
 
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(drpierredebs @ May 26 2008,8:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I suggest you all buy this book:

http://www.exrx.net/Store/HK/TextbookWorkPhysiology.html</div>
If you are in the UK, the 4th Ed. of this book can be purchased from Amazon for £51.50 with free P&amp;P. That's the best deal I could find after a quick scout around.

Hardcover: 649 pages
Publisher: Human Kinetics Europe Ltd; 4Rev Ed edition (Feb 2003)
Language English
ISBN-10: 0736001409
ISBN-13: 978-0736001403

Looks like a nice addition for my library. Thanks for the heads up, Doc.
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 26 2008,11:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">if you are eating 3 square tahst 450 grams a day!!! That is a LOT of carbs! I don´t even consume that much after a marathon where I may have burned 6000 +calories.</div>

i am of course bulking
biggrin.gif
i hope you're not suggesting for me to eat less
biggrin.gif


what are your recommendation for bulking nutrition? just curious, cheers</div>
I am not the bulking expert as I only did it once.

for about 6 months, I drank at least 1 liter of whole milk a day, plus 100 grams of cottage cheese in addition to all the eggs and steaks.

It worked well.

But I will never do it again.
 
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(drpierredebs @ May 26 2008,8:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(_Simon_ @ May 26 2008,11:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">if you are eating 3 square tahst 450 grams a day!!! That is a LOT of carbs! I don´t even consume that much after a marathon where I may have burned 6000 +calories.</div>

i am of course bulking
biggrin.gif
i hope you're not suggesting for me to eat less
biggrin.gif


what are your recommendation for bulking nutrition? just curious, cheers</div>
I am not the bulking expert as I only did it once.

for about 6 months, I drank at least 1 liter of whole milk a day, plus 100 grams of cottage cheese in addition to all the eggs and steaks.

It worked well.

But I will never do it again.</div>
Never bulk again or never bulk that way again?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I didn't say that. But I wasn't clear either. Vitamin C, at least in great quantity, causes the immune system to become overactive. As it does so, it kills more bacteria than otherwise. If one of the bacteria is the one that controls candida, candida overgrowth occurs. I don't know if candida overgrowth can cause the runs but if a surplus of vitamin C can cause an adverse condition even if only indirectly, it's only reasonable to assume that any supplementation can cause an adverse condition too. </div> Now boys, if that isn't backing up at full speed, I don't know what is. I have to wonder how he drives a car wearing blinders.
...and sending the Paleo link to DrPierre! ROFL!!!
Anyway, back on track here; despite our initial discussions over the Paleo, which got sorted out, I must admit that I like DrPierre's present diet a lot; it makes sense on the carb angle especially. Doc, I'd like to see your full grocery list if you could PM me or post it here; I'm Berry interested!
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today

breakfast:
10 egg whites
2 egg yolks
25 grams walnuts
300 grams raspberries
50 ml espresso plus 2 grams brown sugar

lunch
125 grams pistachios
50 grams beef jerky
2 apples
50 grams prunes
50 ml espresso plus 2 grams brown sugar

snack
50 ml espresso plus 2 grams brown sugar

dinner
150 gram mixed salad
2 tbsp olive oil
1 teespoon almond butter
100 grams chicken breast
25 grams pistachios
25 grams prunes

30 minutes stair master
3 x 3 100 kg dead lift
3 x 1 140 kg deadlift
10 x 3 standing presses 50 kg

no biking today
 
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(drpierredebs @ May 26 2008,2:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">okay.

1. normally, grain based foods are energy dense and nutrient poor. veggies and fruits are the opposite. This is a big plus. think vitamins and minerals and fiber.
If you are no Carb, you have to eat fresh reindeer liver and the like and enough of it to get sufficient quantities of vit C for instance.

2. It is hard to eat enough veggies to get an overload of carbs and calories.

3. veggies are low glycemic and hence you don´t get the insulin rush. (the caveat is of course directly after training when you may want the insulin for growth and recovery, in this case fruits are the next best choice, followed by dried fruits which have a higher sugar content per weight.

4. Unless you just ran a marathom, very rarely does one need the 100 + grams of dense carbs coming from a plate of pasta or a pizza. Very often a Pasta dish as many eat for a meal or a pizza gives more than 150 grams of carbohydrates.

5. I won´t get into the Paleo explanation as I never really followed the strict paleo way of eating as I like sugar in my coffee, dark chocolate and salt on my eggs.</div>
Thank you for the reply. All those points are very clear to me, though by far #5 is the most interesting and least obvious.
I'm digging the grocery list as well. I think when I terminate this UD2.0 attempt in a few weeks, I'll try something along those lines. If nothing else, I can't say I've ever binged on fruit and veggies and felt crappy afterward, just as I can't say I've ever eaten grain based carbs without feeling crappy afterward. Makes sense.
So are you 'against' meal replacement powders, protein, glucose polymers, etc, for post workout?
 
Martin,

Would you say that a low-carb diet is far worse than a zero-carb diet or a high-carb diet? If the body doesn't enter ketosis, is it safe to say someone would be MUCH hungier on a low-carb diet than a zero-carb diet...and have less energy since they are still relying on glucose for fuel, which would be scarce?

This is the main issue I see with low-carb diets.
If your not in ketosis you may as well be eating all the carbs you want or you will be tired, weak, and losing muscle most likely.

What is the maximum threshold of carbs for maintaining ketosis?
 
Lyle Mac seems to indicate that there is no real benefit to ketosis per se, but rather the benefit (increased fatty acid oxidation) comes from lowered insulin. As such, he recommends keeping the carbs to about 50 g on a 1500 calorie diet.
Mario DiPasquale goes a step further and says ketosis is inherently catabolic and not a good sign, so its important to eat enough carbs to stay just out of ketosis, but benefit from lowered insulin and elevated GH (this latter point may be nonsense, because I'm pretty sure low insulin and elevated growth hormone get you as far as a no sex till marriage hottie.
Lyle's reply to an email of mine on this subject was a simple: ketosis is only protein sparing if dietary protein is insufficient.
 
But what about energy? If you ARE in ketosis, you are using ketones as an energy source...the body adapts to using this instead of glucose. If you are just barely NOT IN KETOSIS and restricting carbs, that would seem to leave almost nothing for energy and would probably leed to muscle loss. Am I wrong here?
 
I'm not sure about energy levels, subjectively perceived or actual.
You're not just using ketones either way. You're using fatty acids and ketones. Ketones are a by-product of fatty acid oxidation which can also be used as fuel. I think. I'm not exactly an expert on the exact biological pathway.
But according to those two authors, ketosis is inherently catabolic, unless (according to Lyle) dietary protein is not sufficient.
They both imply you'll better preserve your big guns with somewhere about 30gr of carbs (Lyle says if you're using UD2.0 for a bulk actually, you can get up as high as 100gr and still reap the benefits of lowered insulin and increased fatty acid oxidation). And remember, everyone has a different threshold for ketosis as well. A long distance runner might dip into ketosis from cutting carbs down to 100gr/day. An avid Dr. Phil watching house wife might have to go down to 20.
I dunno buddy.
 
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(soflsun @ May 26 2008,7:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But what about energy? If you ARE in ketosis, you are using ketones as an energy source...the body adapts to using this instead of glucose. If you are just barely NOT IN KETOSIS and restricting carbs, that would seem to leave almost nothing for energy and would probably leed to muscle loss. Am I wrong here?</div>
It's not an on/off switch. Anything under 100g of carbs is considered a ketogenic diet, but higher carb diets in athletes can produced ketosis from burning of the glucose. The lower the carbs, the deeper the ketosis.

Either way the brain will get its energy. The main adaptations to ketosis are really to fuel the brain. Some feel GREAT deep ketosis, others never really adjust and are always run down. Others do great on low or higher carbs, it depends on the person and how long they've been on the diet.

If protein is adequate, as beingisbeing stated, it's moot. Protein is the most muscle sparing macronutrient. The only real way to know how you will feel is to try it. Keep in mind that total adaptation to ketosis takes about 4 weeks, where the brain is using 75% of its energy from ketones, the rest from glucose.
 
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