"Eating fat makes you fat"

Status
Not open for further replies.
<div>
(stevejones @ May 26 2008,7:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How a person looks means pretty little to me these days.</div>
that he is a golf swinging pudge is not the problem Steve, it is the fact he basically is wrong about so much and his interpretations are insane.


You are better getting your information about ketogenic diets from people who know what they are talking about. This is an excellent starting point and if you have no access to it, PM and I will send it to you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed....VDocSum
 
<div>
(quadancer @ May 26 2008,8:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It all sounds very individual-specific to me. I suppose trying it is the only answer.
DrPierre, thanks for the day's menu. I'd still like to see the whole grocery list if you have time. TBH, this sounds like a LOT more interesting diet tastewise and for variety than keto.
Solfsun: good question, wondered myself.
Pete and Being: good stuff; keep it coming!</div>
Well, it is border line ketogenic if you burn about 1000 cal extra a day. On bike days, I am burning at least 2000 calories.

The weekly list?

I buy a weeks worth of nuts, eggs, dried fruits, tuna, apples and oranges. Daily, I walk 2 km to market, I buy a piece of meat, fresh greens for salads, a couple of fresh veggies and (2 bananas when I ride.) I have a strange living situation as my job is 280 km from my family. Druing the week I live in a small one room apartment and I go home to my family on the weekends (wifey makes muchmore cabbage than I)
 
I have figured it out.

martin is trolling here and elsewhere to gain information and references to write a diet book aimed at golfers:

&quot;Swing your way to lean&quot;

no gin and tonics, no carbs and no exercise
 
<div>
(Aaron_F @ May 26 2008,10:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(soflsun @ May 27 2008,3:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What happens to muscle glycogen stores on these low-zero carb diets?  Ketones can't take the place of this can they??  Isn't this what we need for energy in the gym?</div>

There will be some recycling on lactate to glucose in the liver.   But given time and suitable intensity/duration, glycogen will be depleted.

Taking in massive quantities of protein will delay this thanks to gluconeogenesis from amino acids.</div>
Are you talking long-term here or for a specific workout.  Meaning, it will take the glycogen several weeks or days to deplete or after one bout of heavy activity?  How does this get replenished if you are not taking in carbs?

Is there a way to do this whereby ONLY enough carbs are eaten to keep glycogen stores adequate but still keep in a state of ketosis?
 
<div>
(drpierredebs @ May 27 2008,12:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,4:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So are you 'against' meal replacement powders, protein, glucose polymers, etc, for post workout?</div>
No, I just don´t need them anymore. I rather eat a piece of dried meat, ala jerky and a piece of fruit, or after a heavy bike training or race, I mix amino acid powder with apple sauce. I have no regeneration problems to train 5 days a week climbing.</div>
It seems like your protein choices are very lean, offsetting the fats ('good' though they may be) from the nuts. Is this deliberate (do you avoid sat fat from animal sources?).
I'll phrase my other question this way; if you aren't biking, and engaging in more resistance exercise, what macro-nutrient ratio's do you strive for?
I'm trying to imagine a bulk composed of those food groups. If it were 15% fat, 25% protein, 60% carbs, that'd be a helluva lot of green beans and bananas:)
Though I don't see any reason that wouldn't work just fine. Might get expensive though. Never realizedf how cheap grain based calories are!
 
<div>
(beingisbeing @ May 27 2008,3:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(drpierredebs @ May 27 2008,12:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,4:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So are you 'against' meal replacement powders, protein, glucose polymers, etc, for post workout?</div>
No, I just don´t need them anymore. I rather eat a piece of dried meat, ala jerky and a piece of fruit, or after a heavy bike training or race, I mix amino acid powder with apple sauce. I have no regeneration problems to train 5 days a week climbing.</div>
It seems like your protein choices are very lean, offsetting the fats ('good' though they may be) from the nuts. Is this deliberate (do you avoid sat fat from animal sources?).
    I'll phrase my other question this way; if you aren't biking, and engaging in more resistance exercise, what macro-nutrient ratio's do you strive for?
    I'm trying to imagine a bulk composed of those food groups. If it were 15% fat, 25% protein, 60% carbs, that'd be a helluva lot of green beans and bananas:)
    Though I don't see any reason that wouldn't work just fine. Might get expensive though. Never realizedf how cheap grain based calories are!</div>
I try not to eat too much animal fat purely for the reason that it is the fat of cultivated animals were all the pesticides &amp; chemicals get stored. I spend a lot of time in Italy and I buy meats from local hunters, in this case I eat it all.

I don´t eat beans.

In general, I try to eat lean meats so that I can snack throughout the day on nuts and thus keep my calories in check. I am addicted to pistachios and walnuts.

I try to maintain my macronutrient ratio regardless of how I am training: 50%, 30%, 20% F:p:C

Only on bike days do I eat a bunch of  extra carbs before, during and directly after.
And honestly, I don´t even count these carbs as they get used up on the same day.
After a Race, I eat until I am no longer hungry. After he last race, which lasted about 5 hours and I burned 6550 calories , I ate a 300 gram steak, about 500 grams of Rucola/Radicchio/Onion/Tomato Salad, a bunch of steamed veggies, 3 scoops of Ice cream and 500ml non-alcoholic Weizenbier. The next day I was still 0.5 kg lighter was still able to train 50km on the bike with little residual race pain.

If this was a golf match, I would have had to eat much more afterwards and I would not be able to golf the next day.
 
<div>
(Aaron_F @ May 26 2008,10:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(pete69 @ May 27 2008,2:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's the absence of carbs, not the presence of fat that induces ketosis.</div>
It doesnt even have to be an absence of carbs (Its also to do with the influx of fatty acids into the liver), as even on a moderate carb diet, you will have ketones present, as logn as you have a good negative caloric balance.</div>
Thank you Aaron for this blurb of wisdom. Ketones are produced as long as fatty acids are oxidated. What differs is the amount. Yet I disagree with the negative caloric balance bit. I don't see how merely cutting total calories will induce a deeper ketosis. But that would be a fundamental disagreement so it's nothing new.
 
<div>
(drpierredebs @ May 27 2008,3:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 27 2008,3:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(drpierredebs @ May 27 2008,12:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,4:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So are you 'against' meal replacement powders, protein, glucose polymers, etc, for post workout?</div>
No, I just don´t need them anymore. I rather eat a piece of dried meat, ala jerky and a piece of fruit, or after a heavy bike training or race, I mix amino acid powder with apple sauce. I have no regeneration problems to train 5 days a week climbing.</div>
It seems like your protein choices are very lean, offsetting the fats ('good' though they may be) from the nuts. Is this deliberate (do you avoid sat fat from animal sources?).
I'll phrase my other question this way; if you aren't biking, and engaging in more resistance exercise, what macro-nutrient ratio's do you strive for?
I'm trying to imagine a bulk composed of those food groups. If it were 15% fat, 25% protein, 60% carbs, that'd be a helluva lot of green beans and bananas:)
Though I don't see any reason that wouldn't work just fine. Might get expensive though. Never realizedf how cheap grain based calories are!</div>
I try not to eat too much animal fat purely for the reason that it is the fat of cultivated animals were all the pesticides &amp; chemicals get stored. I spend a lot of time in Italy and I buy meats from local hunters, in this case I eat it all.

I don´t eat beans.

In general, I try to eat lean meats so that I can snack throughout the day on nuts and thus keep my calories in check. I am addicted to pistachios and walnuts.

I try to maintain my macronutrient ratio regardless of how I am training: 50%, 30%, 20% F:p:C

Only on bike days do I eat a bunch of extra carbs before, during and directly after.
And honestly, I don´t even count these carbs as they get used up on the same day.
After a Race, I eat until I am no longer hungry. After he last race, which lasted about 5 hours and I burned 6550 calories , I ate a 300 gram steak, about 500 grams of Rucola/Radicchio/Onion/Tomato Salad, a bunch of steamed veggies, 3 scoops of Ice cream and 500ml non-alcoholic Weizenbier. The next day I was still 0.5 kg lighter was still able to train 50km on the bike with little residual race pain.

If this was a golf match, I would have had to eat much more afterwards and I would not be able to golf the next day.</div>
Interesting macros. You mentioned bulking once. I'm assuming you did it with those ratios? Thats some real food for thought. I've been under the impression that you'd want more carbohydrate and more provoking of insulin on a bulk, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
50% fat! From a guy in your shape that is inspiring as well as thought provoking. Maybe I should go to McDonalds (j/k
smile.gif
).
In your opinion, which seems to differ from standard keto preach, whats the advantage of having fat set so high and carbs set so low?
 
To further show that our resident golf swinging ketone turd is sevrly misguided-Taken from a very interesting article about lance armstrong.

Notice also in refernec to the generation of ATP from carbs versus fat ti which golf boy had some inane response in an earlier post.


Metabolic clues regarding the enhanced
performance of elite endurance athletes from
orchiectomy-induced hormonal changes
Craig S. Atwood a,b,c,*, Richard L. Bowen d

Fuel utilization and metabolism for exercise
There are three major sources of energy available
to athletes: fat, carbohydrate and protein. The
contribution of energy from protein is low (no more
than 5% in marathon runners; [15,16]). Therefore,
endurance athletes derive most of their energy
needs from fat and carbohydrates. Muscle and liver
store most of the body’s carbohydrate, enough fuel
(
&amp;#1113096;400–600 g [17,18]) for approximately 90–
120 min of high-intensity exercise [19]. Fat stores
on the other hand could supply energy needs for
60–100 h [19,20] due to its higher energy content
and abundance throughout the body compared with
carbohydrates. Although fat can supply fuel for a
number of days, the body utilizes a mixture of fat
and carbohydrate in order to meet the ATP energy
requirements of muscle cells during moderate to
intense exercise for multiple reasons, including,
(1) the generation of ATP per O2 is greater for glu-
cose (ATP:O2 = 3.0) compared with fatty acids
(ATP:O2 = 2.8). Therefore, it is more advantageous
to utilize glucose during periods of intense (anaer-
obic) exercise to meet energy (ATP) demands. In-
deed, increases in glycolytic &amp;#64258;ux appear to
decrease fat metabolism by decreasing the trans-
port of FA into the sarcoplasma, lipolysis of intra-
muscular triacylglycerides by hormone-sensitive
lipase (HSL), and transport of FA across the mito-
chondrial membrane (reviewed in [21]), (2) the
rate of entry of free fatty acids (FFA) into muscle
cells is dependent upon the concentration of un-
bound FFA in the plasma, (3) the contribution of
unbound FFA in the plasma is restrained by solubil-
ity, (4) muscle extraction of plasma FFA may be
limiting, (5) the contribution by intramuscular tri-
glycerides to energy output while important, may
become limiting during extended periods of exer-
cise [20]. As a result, ß-oxidation of FFA alone
cannot be mobilized rapidly enough to provide
100% of the ATP required by muscles at higher
intensity levels for sustained periods of time.
Therefore, endurance athletes like runners and cy-
clists use a mixture of these fuels to meet their
immediate energy requirements. This is not a new
concept; Randle proposed over 40 years ago that
FFAs compete with glucose as the major energy
substrate in (cardiac) muscle [22].
The contribution of carbohydrate will vary
depending upon the intensity and duration of the
event. The higher the intensity and the greater
the ATP requirement the greater will be the require-
ment for carbohydrate oxidation to make up for the
short fall of ATP production from ß-oxidation of
fatty acids. Energy obtained from ß-oxidation will
be dependent upon both intramuscular FFA stores
[23,24] and FFA transported into myocytes from
the plasma. Plasma FFA concentrations increase
with exercise time, as does the level of unbound
(to albumin) FFA, the fraction available for uptake
by muscle cells [20,25,26]. Therefore, the greater
the length of the exercise, the higher are the levels
of total and thus unbound plasma FFA and the great-
er the contribution of ß-oxidation to the overall ATP
requirement. Given the limited supply of body (pri-
marily muscle and liver) glycogen, the limiting fac-
tor in how long an athlete can perform intense
exercise is therefore going to be dependent upon
the total amount and rate of utilization of carbohy-
drates. At high exercise intensity, dietary glucose is
insuf&amp;#64257;cient to maintain these stores. Therefore, the
only way an athlete can accommodate the reduced
availability of glucose is to increase FFA ß-oxida-
tion, or to reduce speed. Interestingly, the utiliza-
tion of carbohydrate is inversely correlated to that
of FFA and falls throughout a marathon [20]. How-
ever, even the increase in FFA at this time cannot
compensate for the loss of energy derived from glu-
cose stores. Fatigue (or ‘hitting the wall’), is char-
acterized by a drop in speed which is a direct
result of decreased carbohydrate utilization as a re-
sult of a fall in blood glucose levels due to depletion
of muscle and liver glycogen stores and blood glu-
cose stores [20]. Declines in blood glucose are not
evident in non-fatigued athletes. Fatty acid utiliza-
tion is unchanged during fatigue, indicating that li-
pid is the preferred fuel of muscles, but is rate
limiting, and that carbohydrate utilization is re-
quired for optimal performance. Therefore, those
athletes that can use a higher FFA/glucose ratio at
any given speed (i.e. _
V O
2 ) for their overall energy
needs will endure longer than those with a lower
FFA/glucose ratio. Furthermore, athletes that do
not utilize all their carbohydrate stores during an
exercise period will have a greater chance of
replenishing their carbohydrate stores to maximal
levels compared to those that start with lower car-
bohydrate stores. This means exercise of a similar or
greater intensity and duration can be achieved on
subsequent days, and is perhaps the key to under-
standing the remarkable day-to-day endurance of
Lance Armstrong compared with other cyclists.
Factors that promote triglyceride utilization will
tThe contribution of carbohydrate will vary
depending upon the intensity and duration of the
event. The higher the intensity and the greater
the ATP requirement the greater will be the require-
ment for carbohydrate oxidation to make up for the
short fall of ATP production from ß-oxidation of
fatty acids. Energy obtained from ß-oxidation will
be dependent upon both intramuscular FFA stores
[23,24] and FFA transported into myocytes from
the plasma. Plasma FFA concentrations increase
with exercise time, as does the level of unbound
(to albumin) FFA, the fraction available for uptake
by muscle cells [20,25,26]. Therefore, the greater
the length of the exercise, the higher are the levels
of total and thus unbound plasma FFA and the great-
er the contribution of ß-oxidation to the overall ATP
requirement. Given the limited supply of body (pri-
marily muscle and liver) glycogen, the limiting fac-
tor in how long an athlete can perform intense
exercise is therefore going to be dependent upon
the total amount and rate of utilization of carbohy-
drates. At high exercise intensity, dietary glucose is
insuf&amp;#64257;cient to maintain these stores. Therefore, the
only way an athlete can accommodate the reduced
availability of glucose is to increase FFA ß-oxida-
tion, or to reduce speed. Interestingly, the utiliza-
tion of carbohydrate is inversely correlated to that
of FFA and falls throughout a marathon [20]. How-
ever, even the increase in FFA at this time cannot
compensate for the loss of energy derived from glu-
cose stores. Fatigue (or ‘hitting the wall’), is char-
acterized by a drop in speed which is a direct
result of decreased carbohydrate utilization as a re-
sult of a fall in blood glucose levels due to depletion
of muscle and liver glycogen stores and blood glu-
cose stores [20]. Declines in blood glucose are not
evident in non-fatigued athletes. Fatty acid utiliza-
tion is unchanged during fatigue, indicating that li-
pid is the preferred fuel of muscles, but is rate
limiting, and that carbohydrate utilization is re-
quired for optimal performance. Therefore, those
athletes that can use a higher FFA/glucose ratio at
any given speed (i.e. _
V O
2 ) for their overall energy
needs will endure longer than those with a lower
FFA/glucose ratio. Furthermore, athletes that do
not utilize all their carbohydrate stores during an
exercise period will have a greater chance of
replenishing their carbohydrate stores to maximal
levels compared to those that start with lower car-
bohydrate stores. This means exercise of a similar or
greater intensity and duration can be achieved on
subsequent days, and is perhaps the key to under-
standing the remarkable day-to-day endurance of
Lance Armstrong compared with other cyclists.
 
<div>
(beingisbeing @ May 27 2008,4:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(drpierredebs @ May 27 2008,3:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 27 2008,3:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(drpierredebs @ May 27 2008,12:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,4:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So are you 'against' meal replacement powders, protein, glucose polymers, etc, for post workout?</div>
No, I just don´t need them anymore. I rather eat a piece of dried meat, ala jerky and a piece of fruit, or after a heavy bike training or race, I mix amino acid powder with apple sauce. I have no regeneration problems to train 5 days a week climbing.</div>
It seems like your protein choices are very lean, offsetting the fats ('good' though they may be) from the nuts. Is this deliberate (do you avoid sat fat from animal sources?).
    I'll phrase my other question this way; if you aren't biking, and engaging in more resistance exercise, what macro-nutrient ratio's do you strive for?
    I'm trying to imagine a bulk composed of those food groups. If it were 15% fat, 25% protein, 60% carbs, that'd be a helluva lot of green beans and bananas:)
    Though I don't see any reason that wouldn't work just fine. Might get expensive though. Never realizedf how cheap grain based calories are!</div>
I try not to eat too much animal fat purely for the reason that it is the fat of cultivated animals were all the pesticides &amp; chemicals get stored. I spend a lot of time in Italy and I buy meats from local hunters, in this case I eat it all.

I don´t eat beans.

In general, I try to eat lean meats so that I can snack throughout the day on nuts and thus keep my calories in check. I am addicted to pistachios and walnuts.

I try to maintain my macronutrient ratio regardless of how I am training: 50%, 30%, 20% F:p:C

Only on bike days do I eat a bunch of  extra carbs before, during and directly after.
And honestly, I don´t even count these carbs as they get used up on the same day.
After a Race, I eat until I am no longer hungry. After he last race, which lasted about 5 hours and I burned 6550 calories , I ate a 300 gram steak, about 500 grams of Rucola/Radicchio/Onion/Tomato Salad, a bunch of steamed veggies, 3 scoops of Ice cream and 500ml non-alcoholic Weizenbier. The next day I was still 0.5 kg lighter was still able to train 50km on the bike with little residual race pain.

If this was a golf match, I would have had to eat much more afterwards and I would not be able to golf the next day.</div>
Interesting macros. You mentioned bulking once. I'm assuming you did it with those ratios? Thats some real food for thought. I've been under the impression that you'd want more carbohydrate and more provoking of insulin on a bulk, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
    50% fat! From a guy in your shape that is inspiring as well as thought provoking. Maybe I should go to McDonalds (j/k
smile.gif
).
    In your opinion, which seems to differ from standard keto preach, whats the advantage of having fat set so high and carbs set so low?</div>
I train for endurance, thus my body burns more fat efficiently and  at higher heart rate levels. This avoids the bonking associated with such events which is the results of a depletion of glycogen stores. In other words, I have to operate at or above my maximum heart rate for a longer period of time before my glycogen stores are depleted. This means I train to produce more power, over a longer period of time and at a lower heart rate.

I eat alot of fat to keep my appetite down, keep my blood level stable and keep my body primed to utilize fat for energy. When I am not training and my heart rate is around 50 bpm during the day my body is bruning fat and has little need for much carbs. A few apples and the carbs from nuts keep my brain happy.
My resting heart rate during the bike season in the morning is around 40 when I wake up and during the day just working, reading and running around the lab is between 50 and 60 bpm), t

The keto approached as pushed by pudgy golfer, works well for sedentary overweight/obese people. It does not apply so well for athletes. Athletes need carbohydrates whether they are sprinters, marathoners or weight-lifters.

One of the more disturbing quotes from golf boy was that glucose is toxic. during starvation and ketosis, the liver will produce about 200g of glucose for the brain and other ogans from protein and fat.
 
when I bulked I wasn´t keeping records of what I ate. I just ate alot and going back and plugging the numbers into fitday for a typical bulk day, I came up with something around 5000 calories per day and this wasn´t taking place during endurance training and I was around 95+ kg at the time. Only Starting Jan 2007 have I keep exacting records as to what I ate and the macro-nutrient ratios.
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ May 27 2008,9:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thank you Aaron for this blurb of wisdom. Ketones are produced as long as fatty acids are oxidated. What differs is the amount. Yet I disagree with the negative caloric balance bit. I don't see how merely cutting total calories will induce a deeper ketosis. But that would be a fundamental disagreement so it's nothing new.</div>
It doesnt surprise me that you dont understand, its mainly because you do not appear to have any clue on, well, nearly anything.
 
<div>
(soflsun @ May 27 2008,7:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Are you talking long-term here or for a specific workout. Meaning, it will take the glycogen several weeks or days to deplete or after one bout of heavy activity? How does this get replenished if you are not taking in carbs?</div>
Unless you are doing an enormous workload in a single session, its long term. Over a week, somethwat longer

how to get replenished without carbs. Protein, but even then its not as good as the real deal.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Is there a way to do this whereby ONLY enough carbs are eaten to keep glycogen stores adequate but still keep in a state of ketosis?</div>
Replenish carb stores and there will be a reduction in ketogenesis, depending on the levels.
 
<div>
(pete69 @ May 26 2008,9:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,9:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> This seems to be Dr. Mario DiPasquale's contention in The Anabolic Diet. He flat out states that not taking in enough fat in proportion to protein (even on a cut) increases catabolism and causes the body to burn more of its own protein and be more reluctant to give up its fat. </div>A lot of Mauros stuff is BS. His anabolic diet used a lot of rodent research that doesn't apply to humans. He also claims 30g of carbs keeps you out of ketosis, which is false. He is also a supplement whore, but that's another story.</div>Dr. DiPaquale's insistence on his &quot;Anabolic Diet&quot; serves to dilute the quality of Tudor Bompa's otherwise interesting book, Serious Strength Training.

Any, yeah, he's a supplement whore. It's not enough that you use the right supplements, you've gotta use his supplements.

Apparently we have a plethora of unreliable information available to us. I am grateful that this site helps me to sift out much of the nonsense.
 
All of a sudden I've gotten several reports of abusive language so please keep the discussion civil or I'll have to close this down.

Remember it's ok to attack the message, not the messenger. Keep personal assualts out of the equation.
 
Dan,

The messenger in this case is a troll, trolling FALSE information. This troll is ASSAULTING the truth and facts.
He has a a history on other boards of the same idiotic behavior.
And calling somebody what they are is hardly abusive-pudgy golfer


He is doing  the same on developing threads: Makes a False statement, doesn´t back it up. then when directly challenged changes everything around.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top