"Eating fat makes you fat"

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by _Simon_, Apr 25, 2008.

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  1. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When most people get information regarding training or nutrition, they usually take that information through the context of what the person giving the information looks like. They assume if they are getting good info, the person will follow their own advice and &quot;look&quot; it.</div>How a person looks means pretty little to me these days.  A 6' 170lb guy who has coached world class olympic athletes recently helped me get up to a 835 deadlift....I've also been reading Lyle's books...he doesn't look like he lifts weights.....a teeny guy from China helped me improve my grip....etc. etc. <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And the very few societies that did eat a meat ONLY diet like the Inuit are NOT representative of our evolutionary diet as a whole, they lived in harsh conditions where food choices were limited. Most experts on our evolutionary diet put meat as a primary food source, along with varying proportions of vegetables, fruits, nuts...etc.</div>THis isn't a big deal.  I'm experimenting here, not trying to latch on to some new life long diet plan.  Neither am I preparing for a competition.  I've cut down to low bodyfat levels plenty of times, and it's always been a huge pain in the a** for me.  I've always done it by consuming few cals and few carbs.  In the process I lose size and strength, and I don't enjoy that process.  Using the principle of PCB no one can teach me how to keep my strength levels, because it can't be done.  The lectures and interviews I've seen of Taubes has me interested in giving this a try, and I know I&quot;ll regret it if I don't see the results (or lack of them)for myself .  I don't expect to keep my strength or size any better than I have done in the past, but the results thus far are pretty exemplary (minus the diarrhea).  
    Anyway, My GI problem needs to be corrected, if it's not fixed after giving up my supplements, I'll know the diet is crap (no pun intended), and go back to the same BS I know works.  No one is going to die here.  This is no different than trying a new plifting or bbing program.
     
  2. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (soflsun @ May 26 2008,7:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Martin,

    Would you say that a low-carb diet is far worse than a zero-carb diet or a high-carb diet? If the body doesn't enter ketosis, is it safe to say someone would be MUCH hungier on a low-carb diet than a zero-carb diet...and have less energy since they are still relying on glucose for fuel, which would be scarce?

    This is the main issue I see with low-carb diets.
    If your not in ketosis you may as well be eating all the carbs you want or you will be tired, weak, and losing muscle most likely.

    What is the maximum threshold of carbs for maintaining ketosis?</div>
    I wouldn't say it's far worse. But from my point of view, any carb is worse than none. So then it's only a matter of quantity with a greater quantity being worse than a smaller quantity.

    Glucose can hardly be scarce with a low carb diet because we have many ways to increase blood glucose level without eating carbs. These include the hormones glucagon, epinephrine, norepinephrine and adrenaline. I think there are more but I may be mistaken. Incidentally, those same hormones also mobilize fat from fat cells.

    I don't know what the carb threshold is but I'm sure that eating none will allow ketosis when eating enough fat to do so. If you want to eat some carbs, you must find your own carb threshold. Ketosis won't happen if we eat no fat because ketones are by-products of burning fatty acids. Carbs either allow or prevent ketosis. Fat induces it. That's an important distinction in my view. It tells us, for instance, that a low carb low fat diet won't be as effective at inducing ketosis.

    I view hunger as a function of blood nutrients level. If we're in ketosis, we have ample nutrients in the blood so hunger should be suppressed.
     
  3. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    Stevejones, if you read the rest of what I wrote you will see that this isn't a good way to just peoples information. I specifically mention Lyle McDonald and Dan Duchaine as providing GREAT information, but not looking like bodybuilders/powerlifters but they BACK UP what they say with strong evidence and facts.

    But when someone is making BS claims and DOESN'T back up their claims with research, and skirts around the issue, and claims to follow their advice that amazing causes fat loss with no influence on calorie balance, well then lets see if it works, as he is a walking example of Taubes, errr, I mean, his theory. And the result is the link posted, of him playing golf.

    And I wasn't talking about you when the topic went off onto paleolithic eating, or the Inuit diet not being the only ancestral diet.
     
  4. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    It all sounds very individual-specific to me. I suppose trying it is the only answer.
    DrPierre, thanks for the day's menu. I'd still like to see the whole grocery list if you have time. TBH, this sounds like a LOT more interesting diet tastewise and for variety than keto.
    Solfsun: good question, wondered myself.
    Pete and Being: good stuff; keep it coming!
     
  5. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Ketosis won't happen if we eat no fat because ketones are by-products of burning fatty acids. Carbs either allow or prevent ketosis. Fat induces it. That's an important distinction in my view. It tells us, for instance, that a low carb low fat diet won't be as effective at inducing ketosis.</div>

    It's the absence of carbs, not the presence of fat that induces ketosis. A low fat , low carb diet will induce ketosis. Of course you don't know this because you are clueless. But the body will make ketones from the breakdown of bodyfat when fat is lowered on a very low carb diet.
     
  6. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    from

    &quot;Survival in starvation
    George F Cahill Jr&quot;


    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/68/1/1

    To summarize briefly, liver glycogen provides 1 d or so of glucose for the brain as hepatic gluconeogenesis from musclederived amino acids is initiated in association with production of the ketone bodies acetoacetate and b-hydroxybutyrate. As blood concentrations of these ketone bodies increase, so do their concentrations
    in cerebrospinal fluid, and their metabolism by brain displaces glucose utilization (2) and accordingly spares muscle protein (3). Thus, the human brain derives energy from storage fat, permitting survival by starving, normal-weight individuals for up to 2–2.5 mo and by obese individuals for many months or even 1 y (1, 4)


    Total fasting, NO dietary fat, ketosis develops most deeply during fasting. Look mom, no dietary fat, but i'm in ketosis.
     
  7. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    <div>
    (pete69 @ May 26 2008,8:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">from

    &quot;Survival in starvation
    George F Cahill Jr&quot;


    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/68/1/1

    To summarize briefly, liver glycogen provides 1 d or so of glucose for the brain as hepatic gluconeogenesis from musclederived amino acids is initiated in association with production of the ketone bodies acetoacetate and b-hydroxybutyrate. As blood concentrations of these ketone bodies increase, so do their concentrations
    in cerebrospinal fluid, and their metabolism by brain displaces glucose utilization (2) and accordingly spares muscle protein (3). Thus, the human brain derives energy from storage fat, permitting survival by starving, normal-weight individuals for up to 2–2.5 mo and by obese individuals for many months or even 1 y (1, 4)


    Total fasting, NO dietary fat, ketosis develops most deeply during fasting. Look mom, no dietary fat, but i'm in ketosis.</div>
    You assume that a starvation induced ketosis will translate as is to a dietary induced ketosis.
     
  8. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/1/61

    The Effects of a High-protein, Low-fat, Ketogenic Diet on Adolescents With Morbid Obesity: Body Composition, Blood Chemistries, and Sleep Abnormalities

    You're the one claiming one won't be in ketosis without dietary fat, so fasting shows you are wrong. You can't have it both ways Martin, ketosis is ketosis. YOU claim you need dietary fat. Fasting proves otherwise, and the link above is a LOW FAT, KETOGENIC DIET.

    More proof we are dealing with a troll. DISCLAIMER: Listen to this guy at your own expense.
     
  9. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Pete, anyone:

    If one is on a carbohydrate restricted diet, do you buy/can you back up/refute the theory that increasing fat intake (to 40% or more) will induce the body to 'give up its own fat' burning more of it, and in effect, sparing protein?
    This seems to be Dr. Mario DiPasquale's contention in The Anabolic Diet. He flat out states that not taking in enough fat in proportion to protein (even on a cut) increases catabolism and causes the body to burn more of its own protein and be more reluctant to give up its fat. Is this for real, or BS?
    Uhhhhhh....I dunno...
     
  10. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    <div>
    (beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,9:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Pete, anyone:

    If one is on a carbohydrate restricted diet, do you buy/can you back up/refute the theory that increasing fat intake (to 40% or more) will induce the body to 'give up its own fat' burning more of it, and in effect, sparing protein?
    This seems to be Dr. Mario DiPasquale's contention in The Anabolic Diet. He flat out states that not taking in enough fat in proportion to protein (even on a cut) increases catabolism and causes the body to burn more of its own protein and be more reluctant to give up its fat. Is this for real, or BS?
    Uhhhhhh....I dunno...</div>
    Really quickly, gotta head out to my friends to catch a movie.

    Fish oil has a small effect on increasing fat burning. Adding dietary fat is not necessary to increase fat burning. There is, I believe a gene knockout study on rodents (COMPLETELY irrelevant to humans) showing added fat is necessary for fat burning. But look at the studies on Protein Sparing Modified Fast. Lyle McDonald has a book on it, or look it up on medline. Protein Sparing Modified Fast, Optifast-70. Fat is not needed to burn fat, added dietary fat will be burned in place of bodyfat when added to the diet.

    Now in terms of muscle sparing, it seems to depend. At high bodyfat levels obese people can FAST and lose little to no muscle. As you get leaner, protein is the most muscle sparing. At low bodyfat levels dietary fat MIGHT be nitrogen sparing, as the body is going into a state of semi-starvation. Hormonally, things plummet at really low bodyfat. And fat availability from fat stores diminish, which may cause more muscle loss. Added carbs or dietary fat MAY be sparing at very lean levels. MCT oil to increase ketones might come into handy at low levels.

    A lot of Mauros stuff is BS. His anabolic diet used a lot of rodent research that doesn't apply to humans. He also claims 30g of carbs keeps you out of ketosis, which is false. He is also a supplement whore, but that's another story.
     
  11. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Thanks man! Thats interesting. He is a supplement whore, I noticed that. Yuck.
    So I guess the only real solid reason to include substantial fat on a CKD is to increase calories (either to bulk or maintain a manageable calorie level) or to increase energy (with MCTs). Hence Lyle not advocating the all out fat binge that the Anabolic Diet seems to permit...
    Enjoy the show!
     
  12. soflsun

    soflsun New Member

    What happens to muscle glycogen stores on these low-zero carb diets? Ketones can't take the place of this can they?? Isn't this what we need for energy in the gym?
     
  13. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div>
    (pete69 @ May 26 2008,8:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Ketosis won't happen if we eat no fat because ketones are by-products of burning fatty acids. Carbs either allow or prevent ketosis. Fat induces it. That's an important distinction in my view. It tells us, for instance, that a low carb low fat diet won't be as effective at inducing ketosis.</div>

    It's the absence of carbs, not the presence of fat that induces ketosis. A low fat , low carb diet will induce ketosis. Of course you don't know this because you are clueless. But the body will make ketones from the breakdown of bodyfat when fat is lowered on a very low carb diet.</div>
    Exactly.  I've enjoyed your recent posts here Pete, seems you've done quite a bit of reading on nutrition.
     
  14. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (pete69 @ May 27 2008,2:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's the absence of carbs, not the presence of fat that induces ketosis.</div>
    It doesnt even have to be an absence of carbs (Its also to do with the influx of fatty acids into the liver), as even on a moderate carb diet, you will have ketones present, as logn as you have a good negative caloric balance.
     
  15. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div>
    (Aaron_F @ May 26 2008,10:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (pete69 @ May 27 2008,2:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's the absence of carbs, not the presence of fat that induces ketosis.</div>
    It doesnt even have to be an absence of carbs (Its also to do with the influx of fatty acids into the liver), as even on a moderate carb diet, you will have ketones present, as logn as you have a good negative caloric balance.</div>
    So why are ketones made on a 'moderate' carb diet. I am not sure I understand this. I assumed it was the absence of carbs that triggered this. But its actually a caloric deficit that triggers it? Just asking for clarification.
     
  16. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    <div>
    (soflsun @ May 26 2008,9:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What happens to muscle glycogen stores on these low-zero carb diets? Ketones can't take the place of this can they?? Isn't this what we need for energy in the gym?</div>
    I think what happens is: glycogen stores are chronically low, eventually you get weaker, can't load the muscle as much or progressively, and between that and decreased insulin leading to poorer anabolic response, one day down the road, you'll lose muscle!
    Try it with a carb up?! (granted I'm new to this [​IMG] ). I looked like hammered string cheese the morning before my carb up, and afterwards I looked like a goddamned juicehead, and felt strong as all hell in the gym.
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ May 27 2008,4:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So why are ketones made on a 'moderate' carb diet.  I am not sure I understand this.  I assumed it was the absence of carbs that triggered this.  But its actually a caloric deficit that triggers it?  Just asking for clarification.</div>
    Adipocyte releases fat into the blood stream, and from there, something has to happen with it.

    Liver knows energy is low and even on a moderate carb intake, liver glycogen is not full. So the liver does what it does and breaks down the extra fat into ketones. Not in high levels, not anywhere near ketosis.

    It will happen more in the later stages of the inter-meal period than directly after eating.

    If you look at some of the low vs high carb diet trials, that performed ketone comparisons note some positives on the higher carb groups.
     
  18. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (soflsun @ May 27 2008,3:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What happens to muscle glycogen stores on these low-zero carb diets?  Ketones can't take the place of this can they??  Isn't this what we need for energy in the gym?</div>
    Well it will depend on the intensity and duration of the activity.  For weight training, often its phophocreatine dependant, rather than glycogen dependant.  

    So the performance does not change dramatically.  there can be some issues thanks to the glycogen depletion dropping muscle size and creating lower strength thanks to lower Cross sectional area, but it varies.  

    There will be some recycling on lactate to glucose in the liver.   But given time and suitable intensity/duration, glycogen will be depleted.

    Taking in massive quantities of protein will delay this thanks to gluconeogenesis from amino acids.

    Oh yea, from a more anecdotal perspective, some seem to find low carb drop strength without any change in weight. Even the addition of 10-15g of carbs around training can make the world of difference, neural drive, wahtever.
     
  19. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">even on a moderate carb intake, liver glycogen is not full.</div>

    Thanks, makes perfect sense now.
     
  20. <div>
    (beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,4:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So are you 'against' meal replacement powders, protein, glucose polymers, etc, for post workout?</div>
    No, I just don´t need them anymore. I rather eat a piece of dried meat, ala jerky and a piece of fruit, or after a heavy bike training or race, I mix amino acid powder with apple sauce. I have no regeneration problems to train 5 days a week climbing.
     
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