stevejones
Member
I can squat more than I can clean. I can deadlift and shrug more than I can push-press. How are my legs & upper back working harder with olympic lifts than they are with those other movements?
Lol's New HST Log
- Thread starter Lol
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I think it's down to power production. One very important point observed by Rippetoe (where the SAID principle comes to light again) is that if you train in a high speed fashion (like you would for cleans) and with a heavy enough weight to make high power production necessary, your strength developed will be useable at a range of speeds from fast with moderate loads, to slow with heavy loads (eg. deads). So power training work (eg. cleans with 50-75% of your 1RM) can help with slower, heavier work (like deads).
Rippetoe sites George Hechter as an example of a powerlifter who incorporated power cleans and high clean pulls into his deadlift training. He warmed up for his heavy deads with the explosive movements up to about 60% of his 1RM dead. Then he deadlifted on up to his work sets. His best dead was 825lbs at a bw of 242 so he's quite similar to you Steve.
I also think that, if you are hoping to translate your strength gains to other sporting activities, Oly lifts would be more beneficial due to the power development and speed of the movements.
Rippetoe sites George Hechter as an example of a powerlifter who incorporated power cleans and high clean pulls into his deadlift training. He warmed up for his heavy deads with the explosive movements up to about 60% of his 1RM dead. Then he deadlifted on up to his work sets. His best dead was 825lbs at a bw of 242 so he's quite similar to you Steve.
I also think that, if you are hoping to translate your strength gains to other sporting activities, Oly lifts would be more beneficial due to the power development and speed of the movements.
LOL is right, the power output for a clean pull is 4 times that of a deadlift The second pull, depending on which exercise you do (clean, snatch etc), is between 2-4 times that of a deadlift. More power is required for a 315 pound clean than a 500 pound deadlift.
Everyone can squat more than they clean, when form is good, one should clean 80% of their back squat. Nothing is better for developing explosive power than olympic lifting. The olympic lifters I know do not train the bench much, if at all, on a regular basis, yet, each one has a big bench. One guy who jerks 420 benches 405 without regular training. He's been telling me for months to stop benching. A nationally ranked lifter who's helped me weighs 185 pounds and benches 350 without training it, he's also push-pressed 300+.
Think about it steve, when you clean a BB, you're accelerating the bar, it's not only moving much faster than when you back squat, but you have to jump and pull yourself under the bar and catch it. I know from experience it is MUCH easier to front squat for reps/sets my max squat clean.
Everyone can squat more than they clean, when form is good, one should clean 80% of their back squat. Nothing is better for developing explosive power than olympic lifting. The olympic lifters I know do not train the bench much, if at all, on a regular basis, yet, each one has a big bench. One guy who jerks 420 benches 405 without regular training. He's been telling me for months to stop benching. A nationally ranked lifter who's helped me weighs 185 pounds and benches 350 without training it, he's also push-pressed 300+.
Think about it steve, when you clean a BB, you're accelerating the bar, it's not only moving much faster than when you back squat, but you have to jump and pull yourself under the bar and catch it. I know from experience it is MUCH easier to front squat for reps/sets my max squat clean.
Monday 02/7/07
Shoulder much improved. Nerve has stopped twinging. Only slight discomfort laterally raising left arm.
Squats: After warmups 1 x 5 x 110kg, 3 x 5 x 130kg, 2 x 3 x 140kg (308lb), 1 x 10 x 110kg
Pendlay Rows: 1 x 10 x 60kg, 1 x 5 x 80, 2 x 5 x 90, 2 x 5 x 95kg (209lbs)
These were pretty uncomfortable for my left forearm with pronated grip so switched to supinated for last two sets. Still not great. Parallel grip would be best but impossible until I get some handles sorted.
Some light shoulder and chest work. Managed 51 bodyweight dips. Think that might be a PB!
Tri extensions: 1 x 15 x 31kg, 1 x 10 x 46kg (PB), 2 x 6 x 46kg (101lbs)
This is strange. I managed 10 reps with what should be 1kg more than my 5RM. My 10RM was previously 40kgs. Wonder what my new 5RM will turn out to be? Stay tuned...
To finish off I did a few sets of upright rows with 46kg just to see how my shoulder would handle it.
I'm feeling a bit fatter again now. I'm currently 198lbs so I've added 9lbs so far this cycle! Bit too quick really. I just love food too darn much.
Shoulder much improved. Nerve has stopped twinging. Only slight discomfort laterally raising left arm.
Squats: After warmups 1 x 5 x 110kg, 3 x 5 x 130kg, 2 x 3 x 140kg (308lb), 1 x 10 x 110kg
Pendlay Rows: 1 x 10 x 60kg, 1 x 5 x 80, 2 x 5 x 90, 2 x 5 x 95kg (209lbs)
These were pretty uncomfortable for my left forearm with pronated grip so switched to supinated for last two sets. Still not great. Parallel grip would be best but impossible until I get some handles sorted.
Some light shoulder and chest work. Managed 51 bodyweight dips. Think that might be a PB!
Tri extensions: 1 x 15 x 31kg, 1 x 10 x 46kg (PB), 2 x 6 x 46kg (101lbs)
This is strange. I managed 10 reps with what should be 1kg more than my 5RM. My 10RM was previously 40kgs. Wonder what my new 5RM will turn out to be? Stay tuned...
To finish off I did a few sets of upright rows with 46kg just to see how my shoulder would handle it.
I'm feeling a bit fatter again now. I'm currently 198lbs so I've added 9lbs so far this cycle! Bit too quick really. I just love food too darn much.
Cheers Liege. The shoulder's improving every day.
Yeah, 51 consecutive dips. I did them pretty quickly though. Mainly going for a decent burn to help my shoulder and left forearm (which even hurts doing dips! It's pretty uncomfortable today after the Pendlays).
Legs are nicely fried already after the squats last night.
Yeah, 51 consecutive dips. I did them pretty quickly though. Mainly going for a decent burn to help my shoulder and left forearm (which even hurts doing dips! It's pretty uncomfortable today after the Pendlays).
Legs are nicely fried already after the squats last night.
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(Totentanz @ Jul. 04 2007,05:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wow, 51 consecutive dips is quite impressive.</div>
Really? Well, maybe it just points to the fact that my lower body is too scrawny and needs beefing up. Not enough squats this past month.
I managed 52 yesterday. I definitely can't do that many when I'm regularly training chest with heavy dips or bench, so having an enforced break for a week or so cos of my forearm and shoulder has helped there. I reckon creatine helps too. It takes longer for fatigue to build up when the loads are lighter, but once I pass 40 reps fatigue gets the better of me pretty quickly. I think if I went to absolute face distorting failure I would only get one or two more.
I wonder how small my legs would have to be to allow me to get 100 reps?
(Totentanz @ Jul. 04 2007,05:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wow, 51 consecutive dips is quite impressive.</div>
Really? Well, maybe it just points to the fact that my lower body is too scrawny and needs beefing up. Not enough squats this past month.
I managed 52 yesterday. I definitely can't do that many when I'm regularly training chest with heavy dips or bench, so having an enforced break for a week or so cos of my forearm and shoulder has helped there. I reckon creatine helps too. It takes longer for fatigue to build up when the loads are lighter, but once I pass 40 reps fatigue gets the better of me pretty quickly. I think if I went to absolute face distorting failure I would only get one or two more.
I wonder how small my legs would have to be to allow me to get 100 reps?
Chest below hands? Not sure about that. Well, all I know is that I go as far down as I can. In other words, I reach a bottom position and the only way I could go lower is if my scapula were able to overlap or I had a big weight around my waist.
Right now I'm having to put my hands flat on a surface too which I don't like as it's really hard on my already sore wrists. The proper dip bars at the gym are much more pleasant to use and I think I could get more reps using those.
As a kid I remember watching Superstars; one of the events was to see how many dips could be done in a minute. Brian Jacks (Olympic Bronze medal winning Judo guy) won Superstars in '78 and '79. He did brilliantly in the gym tests (dips and squat thrusts). I'm not exactly sure how many dips he actually did but I think it was 100! He ran out of time. I remember seeing him blast away from start to finish. I wonder how many he could actually have done without a time limit?
He didn't have to go as low as possible though. I think the judges required the dip to cause the arm to bend to not much more than 90 degrees. I'm going a fair bit lower than that. Pretty awesome though.
If I ever get 100 then I'll be more than happy. Not likely to happen though without some serious weight loss and some serious heavy dip training combined with endurance work (bit of an awkward combo).
As a kid I remember watching Superstars; one of the events was to see how many dips could be done in a minute. Brian Jacks (Olympic Bronze medal winning Judo guy) won Superstars in '78 and '79. He did brilliantly in the gym tests (dips and squat thrusts). I'm not exactly sure how many dips he actually did but I think it was 100! He ran out of time. I remember seeing him blast away from start to finish. I wonder how many he could actually have done without a time limit?
He didn't have to go as low as possible though. I think the judges required the dip to cause the arm to bend to not much more than 90 degrees. I'm going a fair bit lower than that. Pretty awesome though.
If I ever get 100 then I'll be more than happy. Not likely to happen though without some serious weight loss and some serious heavy dip training combined with endurance work (bit of an awkward combo).
Wednesday 04/7/07
No workout today. Working late and just too tired. Did some grip work just now so I didn't feel a complete wuss.
Managed 20 consecutive reps with the No1 CoC with my right hand and 15 with my left. Both of those are PBs so I'm pleased with that. To think, it wasn't that long ago that I could only just manage 1 rep with my right hand only.
After that, got 4 consecutive reps (almost 5) with the No2 with my RH and just about 1 with my left. Ne'er mind eh! I MaxStimmed up to 10 reps with each hand with the No2 and then moved on to negs with the No3. Did another 10 reps for each hand with that and then dropped back to the No1 for a warm down, doing 30 reps with each hand in clusters. Result: grip toasted!
No workout today. Working late and just too tired. Did some grip work just now so I didn't feel a complete wuss.
Managed 20 consecutive reps with the No1 CoC with my right hand and 15 with my left. Both of those are PBs so I'm pleased with that. To think, it wasn't that long ago that I could only just manage 1 rep with my right hand only.
After that, got 4 consecutive reps (almost 5) with the No2 with my RH and just about 1 with my left. Ne'er mind eh! I MaxStimmed up to 10 reps with each hand with the No2 and then moved on to negs with the No3. Did another 10 reps for each hand with that and then dropped back to the No1 for a warm down, doing 30 reps with each hand in clusters. Result: grip toasted!
stevejones
Member
<div>
(Lol @ Jul. 04 2007,21:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wednesday 04/7/07
No workout today. Working late and just too tired. Did some grip work just now so I didn't feel a complete wuss.
Managed 20 consecutive reps with the No1 CoC with my right hand and 15 with my left. Both of those are PBs so I'm pleased with that. To think, it wasn't that long ago that I could only just manage 1 rep with my right hand only.
After that, got 4 consecutive reps (almost 5) with the No2 with my RH and just about 1 with my left. Ne'er mind eh! I MaxStimmed up to 10 reps with each hand with the No2 and then moved on to negs with the No3. Did another 10 reps for each hand with that and then dropped back to the No1 for a warm down, doing 30 reps with each hand in clusters. Result: grip toasted!</div>
Good grip workout. You might want to try doing negatives with a coc 2.5 or even 3 instead of going down to a 1 and doing high reps. Negatives always helped my strength more than high reps with lighter grippers.
(Lol @ Jul. 04 2007,21:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wednesday 04/7/07
No workout today. Working late and just too tired. Did some grip work just now so I didn't feel a complete wuss.
Managed 20 consecutive reps with the No1 CoC with my right hand and 15 with my left. Both of those are PBs so I'm pleased with that. To think, it wasn't that long ago that I could only just manage 1 rep with my right hand only.
After that, got 4 consecutive reps (almost 5) with the No2 with my RH and just about 1 with my left. Ne'er mind eh! I MaxStimmed up to 10 reps with each hand with the No2 and then moved on to negs with the No3. Did another 10 reps for each hand with that and then dropped back to the No1 for a warm down, doing 30 reps with each hand in clusters. Result: grip toasted!</div>
Good grip workout. You might want to try doing negatives with a coc 2.5 or even 3 instead of going down to a 1 and doing high reps. Negatives always helped my strength more than high reps with lighter grippers.
stevejones
Member
Have you tested your grip strength on a barbell (standing in a power rack and see how much you can hold onto)?
<div>
(stevejones @ Jul. 06 2007,05:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Have you tested your grip strength on a barbell (standing in a power rack and see how much you can hold onto)?</div>
No, not in a while now. I'll have to do that soon. I'll use an over-over grip for that. I am very aware that my reverse grip is now no longer the limiting factor in my deads, but over-over will be a different matter altogether.
(stevejones @ Jul. 06 2007,05:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Have you tested your grip strength on a barbell (standing in a power rack and see how much you can hold onto)?</div>
No, not in a while now. I'll have to do that soon. I'll use an over-over grip for that. I am very aware that my reverse grip is now no longer the limiting factor in my deads, but over-over will be a different matter altogether.
Friday 07/7/07
Very brief session again as wiped out from lack of sleep last night (Steely Dan were worth it though - awesome show).
Warmup deads (1 x 10 x 95kg (210lbs)) as a general warmup.
Deads: 1 x 5 x 160kg (352lbs) then 5 x 180kg (396lbs) MS style - very hard though. Tried 200kg and barely lifted it off the ground. Will try again next week.
Very brief session again as wiped out from lack of sleep last night (Steely Dan were worth it though - awesome show).
Warmup deads (1 x 10 x 95kg (210lbs)) as a general warmup.
Deads: 1 x 5 x 160kg (352lbs) then 5 x 180kg (396lbs) MS style - very hard though. Tried 200kg and barely lifted it off the ground. Will try again next week.
scientific muscle
New Member
I love THE DAN!
Wow, Lol, that is some incredible deadlifting, excellent work.
Wow, Lol, that is some incredible deadlifting, excellent work.
Wow! A fellow Danner and lifter! So I'm not the only one.
For me the Dan are one of the seven wonders of the world. Everyone who cares for them should see the Dan before they die (and by 'they' I mean Don and Walt!).
It's funny how seeing inspiring people in a particular field can make you want to push yourself just that little bit harder in whatever it is that you want to do. I WILL lift 200kgs... soon.
Speaking of inspiring people, the Tour De France kicked off in London this morning so must check on their progress. I wonder if our resident Doc watches that?
For me the Dan are one of the seven wonders of the world. Everyone who cares for them should see the Dan before they die (and by 'they' I mean Don and Walt!).
It's funny how seeing inspiring people in a particular field can make you want to push yourself just that little bit harder in whatever it is that you want to do. I WILL lift 200kgs... soon.
Speaking of inspiring people, the Tour De France kicked off in London this morning so must check on their progress. I wonder if our resident Doc watches that?