Need some input

Ahhh...I could almost feel you coming Tot...hehe
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I have not been to lyle site...don't know what it is..could you please provide a link.

I believe Tot. that you are correct.

I just had this debate with a personal trainer...and I know it just doesn't sound correct but I believe it is correct.

If adequate protein and carbs are there to grow...it doesn't matter where the food comes from.

This is what I was hinting at with STeve jones...when I said we have debated this before...and from my eyes...Tot got it right.

Were is lyles site?
 
Here's a thread regarding clean vs dirty bulking. I myself feel that eating a little dirty is easier since you can eat more caloric dense food to keep the calories up, leaving more space for protein. Its difficult enough to eat enough as it is. There is another thread in the forums where Dan comments more on caloric density, but I can't seem to find it. Also do a search with the word "Subway" & you'll find more opinions regarding bulking. Personally, I think the Sub sandwich (on whole wheat) is the perfect bulking food, and with the variety, you'll never get board
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Clean vs Dirty_1
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 09 2006,20:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Steve Jones...thanks for your input. Before I say anything else I want to tell you your avatar photo looks great man so keep up the good work.

I guess this bring us back to the debate over a calorie is a calorie...and we have gone over this time and time again...and I still get confused as hell
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You give great advice and you also say eat clean as possible so the bulk does not get out of hand...I used to agree with you on this...and now a days..I dont know what I believe.

I know in order to bulk clean or not clean diet there must be a surplus of calories...now is 3,000 calories a day of burgers the same as chicken breast and brown rice???

This is were I would love to see science step up and explain...I know a lot of guys here believe a calorie is just that...but Dr. Berardi over at T-nation says other wise.

I would love for some of the guru's to explain this.</div>
Is a dirty calorie the same as a clean calorie...hmmm....I have no idea what the correct answer is.  The way I look at it, if this Berardi guy has or at least had the kind of physique you want, you should listen to him or at least research his stuff.  If his physique pales in comparison to your's, then ignore him.  

I'm coming at things from a different angle than you.  When I bulked on a &quot;dirty&quot; diet, I didn't pay attention to diet, I just ate..ALOT.  It's easy to consume 7-8k calories per day when it's dirty food.  Nah, scratch that, it's easy to consume 10k, lol.  In processed food, the high sugar content causes me to keep eating even when I'm not hungry.  That doesn't happen when my diet is clean (I don't crave the sugar).  I can't relate to someone who can eat 3-4k calories per day and be getting it from dirty sources (fast food, etc.).  If I did that my caloric intake would exceed 7k, because I'd keep eating.
 
I saw pictures of the mods from T-nation when they had some conference...and I thought &quot;These guys are BODYBUILDERS???&quot; Only about two of them looked like they lift weights!

I can't speak for the clean vs. dirty argument, but I agree with Steve as to it's effect on hunger. Especially in the summer heat. I do, however, believe that the body needs nutrient-dense foods to grow. You just can't build muscles as well on sodas and cookies. Been there, not done that.
 
Here's the thing about Berardi. He posts an article saying a calorie is a not a calorie and references a study to back up his claims. Go read the study and guess what you find? They concluded that a calorie is, in fact, a calorie. So, I'm not really sure how that study backs up his claims... but he sure did like to quote pieces of the study in a way that made it sound like they were supporting his wacko theories, when in fact they were not supporting them at all.
Hmm... you know, in my book that is called lying and people who do that sort of thing the way he does are called con artists.

Yeah, if you bulk with 'dirty' foods and you don't count your calories, you're probably going to get fat. But if you count calories and control your intake, you won't get any fatter than you would if you ate clean.
 
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(stevejones @ Aug. 10 2006,00:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The way I look at it, if this Berardi guy has or at least had the kind of physique you want, you should listen to him or at least research his stuff. If his physique pales in comparison to your's, then ignore him.</div>
Wow. I seriously hope you are joking here. Do you realize how this sounds?

Hmm. I guess you better not listen to Dan, despite the fact that he knows his stuff. You know, cuz you are bigger than him. I guess you better not listen to Aaron, even though he is an expert. You know, because he is fatter than you. And Lyle, he knows his stuff, but he's small so you shouldn't listen to him either. Hey, Bryan is only like 220 pounds or something. You're bigger than that, right? I guess you'd better stop doing HST.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Judging someone's knowledge by how they look is ignorant. Not everyone has the same goals as you. Not everyone wants to be as big as possible either. Some people are training for a specific sport (Aaron or Lyle come to mind) and some people just want to be physically fit.
Saying &quot;hey, you don't know crap because you're small&quot; is putting you in the same class as Anthony Roberts, whom we all know is the king of retards in fitness-land.

This is the same mentality that got everyone doing the bodypart splits that worked so well for the big guys. I mean Ronnie only hits his muscles once a week, so it must work, right? Nevermind that he is genetically blessed and on massive amounts of drugs. The fact that he is huge means that he is basically a genius when it comes to lifting, so we should all train like him.
Yeah, that worked out real well.
 
Tot

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Not everyone wants to be as big as possible either. Some people are training for a specific sport (Aaron or Lyle come to mind) and some people just want to be physically fit.</div>

Damn, you've hit teh nail on the head, bulls eye! It is downright stupid to use that particular analogy, because we all different, and have different goals.

Besides some of these big guys (I won't mention names) are as dumb as you can find in dumb land for crying out loud
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And there are a few of the HST crowd that are pretty big anyways.
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 10 2006,08:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"></div>
If a guy does not have similiar goals to me, then he is not experiencing the same kinds of things that I do. Therefore, he doesn't have a firm grasp on how hard it is to get larger, or stronger, when you're my size. He only has a bunch of theories he learned in a book. I won't pay much attention to those theories until they have been proven to be correct by others who are larger than I am, because size is my goal (generally).

I don't know what Bryan looks like, but if he is smaller than I am and approached me in the gym to give advice, I wouldn't listen to him. I have tried HST not because I pictured Bryan being large, but because there are people doing it who are larger than I am. Just because I don't listen to the likes of Ronnie Coleman, who has better genetics than I do and does steroids, doesn't mean that the size of a guy shouldn't matter to me.

Generally, unless he's been big in the past, a small guy's advice is about as irrelevant to my training as a genetically gifted guy's is, because both of them can only talk about theories, with no practical experience. If others put those theories into practice with great results, then I'm going to listen.

If you wanted advice on how to become a millionaire, are you going to listen to the guy who's done it, or the poor guy who's studied alot of the theories out there about how to earn more money ? The only thing that would make me listen to the poor guy is a lot of rich guys telling me I should listen.
 
I'm sorry, but I can't reconcile that kind of a belief. How do you know the small guy hasn't trained other people into huge monsters? I guess you'll never find out since you'll automatically ignore him. But hey, that's your loss I guess.

This is the same kind of attitude that leads to all sorts of societal problems. Judging people solely on the way they look is never a good thing. But what do I know? I'm only 200 lbs, so you're probably better off listening to someone bigger than me, as my small size automatically means I don't know what I'm doing.
 
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 10 2006,20:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm sorry, but I can't reconcile that kind of a belief.  How do you know the small guy hasn't trained other people into huge monsters?  I guess you'll never find out since you'll automatically ignore him.  But hey, that's your loss I guess.

This is the same kind of attitude that leads to all sorts of societal problems.  Judging people solely on the way they look is never a good thing.  But what do I know?  I'm only 200 lbs, so you're probably better off listening to someone bigger than me, as my small size automatically means I don't know what I'm doing.</div>
Causing societal problems by judging someone by how they look ?  Your gross generalizations are completely asinine.  Do you always put words in other people's mouths when you disagree with them ?  This the third time you've done this with me.  I have some people working for me who are grossly overweight, and others who are thin as rails.  I couldn't care less how they look, as long as they can do their jobs.  However, would I ask for their advice on how to get my bench up to 500, or get my arms up to a lean 20&quot; ?  Uh...no

Even my initial response to this thread was to see if Berardi had the kind of physique Joe Muscle wanted.  So, I was making a reference to his goals, not mine.  Did I say anything about size, or bigger being better ?  No, but that's the direction you took with all your accusations.  So, I let you know about my goals.  

It's fine that you disagree with me.  Actually, it's a good thing, because disagreements provoke thought.  However, don't get carried away and put words in my mouth.  

I still remain resolute with my philosophy, it's carried me a very long way.  Well past 200  
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I don't know about this one. I think what you eat definitely plays a role in your body composition. Say you dont eat enough protein, eventually you will have some muscle loss. Same goes if you increase your protein after a deficit. It may not be dramatic but there is still some effect. So if someone decides, ok I'm going to eat 80% carbs and 15% fats and %5 protein, vs a 33 split they are definitely going to have a difference in body composition after a few months, even more so if they are weight lifting or doing intense cardio.

While it's true you can eat whatever you want and still gain or lose weight it will still have an effect on your overall body composition in the long run. This is because we know carbs, proteins, and fat are used differently in our body, so a calorie isn't just a calorie, except for that it's a measure of energy, but still the energy that comes from the carb, protein, or fat is utilized, transformed, responds differently within our bodies (I mean just look at high corn fructose syrup). As we know genes play a large roll in this, but none the less you are far better off eating healthier than eating junk food to gain or loss weight.

I've been eating clean now for close to a year. I can tell you I feel way better than when I was eating fast food everyday. I only got sick once this year (which may have only been allergies) compared to the 4-5 times I would get sick a year prior to eating healthy. The more and more I look around the more and more I see people saying they were diagnosed with this or that from eating unhealthy and not working out. That right there is enough reason for me to eat healthy.

Of course this isn't to say you won't make good gains, etc. I just believe you would have matter better gains and your body would be healthier if you went with the chicken breast instead of the fried chicken at the end of the day.
 
Sod this,

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">\However, would I ask for their advice on how to get my bench up to 500, or get my arms up to a lean 20&quot; ? Uh...no</div>

And if they looked like a fat slob, but had the most knowledge in the world on strength and hypertrophy, what would their advice be worth?

or do only strong / big people know how to be strong and big? what about if these people are just naturally big, do they still know how to get people there?

you better give up HST cos bryan isnt that large.
 
Very Very well said, Sun-Tzu.
As for the other 'argument', I would agree that there are out of shape coaches in the world. But given this group, I believe that there would be more misinformed people than in a similar group who were speaking from results. I myself have always said I don't take advice from gym squirrels - IN GENERAL. I know there are anomalies to every statistic, but if you want to fly with eagles, don't hang with the sparrows they say.
 
Well, I guess you shouldn't be giving Joe any diet advice then, considering that you have a 36.5 inch waist and his is much smaller. Obviously you don't know anything about diet, right? Going by your attitude, yes, this is the only conclusion someone can come to. Clearly that is incorrect.
You call it 'putting words in your mouth' but really it is just using an analogy to demonstrate a point. If you are saying someone lacks knowledge because of how they look, that is really only a step away from several other issues. It's also a stupid attitude to have.

You do know that bodybuilding is a long term thing, right? Even though I know what to do to get big, that doesn't make me magically become huge overnight. It's still going to take at least a few years to get huge. Or, maybe the person has the knowledge but simply lacks the willpower or the time to do it.

But whatever, it's your choice to have an ignorant attitude like that. I'm done debating it with you.
 
Just a couple of things I picked out in the thread to respond to -

Firstly if anyone is interested for UK/US weight translations a stone is 14lbs.

Secondly a link to lyle's site - http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/

Lastly - there was a big debate over there about which people to take advice from etc, do they have to be big and strong etc etc.

My take (and a lot of people from that particular thread aired similar views) is that even if someone is big they may be big despite their training rather than because of it (plenty of big HIT-ters out there!) but if someone consistently trains other people who get bigger/stronger/better physiques then they must be doing something right. Therefore coaches

Lots of people won't listen to science unless they can see it in practice (individual decision I guess) but then there are plenty of places to debate different methods, plenty of studies to compare etc etc. Therefore you can also decide on your own view after doing research and debating that research.

So combination of advice from people who have demonstrably helped other people improve their physiques combined with doing your own research and reading debates about different methods might get you somewhere close to an informed opinion.

Either that or just lift heavy and eat a lot :-D

Cheers

Rob
 
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 11 2006,09:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you are saying someone lacks knowledge because of how they look, that is really only a step away from several other issues.  It's also a stupid attitude to have.</div>


That statement is presumptuous and highly illogical.  It makes no sense whatsoever.  We are discussing bodybuilding, not life in general (well, I'm not anyway). You ever look at a resume ?  Does a person's experience have any value when considering him for a job ?  Try to think.
 
And if they looked like a fat slob, but had the most knowledge in the world on strength and hypertrophy, what would their advice be worth?

To me ?  Nothing, unless he has great references, or is a &quot;fat slob&quot; like Mark Miller (powerlifter)

or do only strong / big people know how to be strong and big?  what about if these people are just naturally big, do they still know how to get people there

Already addressed 3 or 4 posts up

you better give up HST cos bryan isnt that large

Boris Kleine is.  I think that might have something to do with Bryan's decision to put him on the front page of the website  
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    So are others here, I read their stats in the &quot;how big are you&quot; section.  It was a factor in my decision to give HST a try.
 
 
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(scientific muscle @ Aug. 11 2006,15:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In the case of listening to huge guys...who better to listen to than the current Mr. natural Olympia- John Hansen.  
It turns out this guy advocates working a bodypart once/week..... It is hard to decide who to believe.</div>
Yeah, you make a good point.  It is pretty hard to know who to take  seriously.  If you take everyone's advice to heart, you waste an incredible amount of time.  There has to be some way to weed out what might  not good advice based on probabilities.   Unfortunately, it is not wise to use 'science' to the exclusion of everything else when trying to figure out what works for you .  Knowledge of the science of bodybuilding is a great tool to have in your arsenal, but scientific theories, and even scientific 'facts' change constantly, new discoveries are made, and evidence comes out to refute 'scientific breakthroughs' being made today.   To a large extent, bbing is always a trial/error game with all individuals.  

I am glad that John Hansen decided to put up pictures of himself at 15 years old after working out for one year.  He has some great genetics there, and that helps to put things in perspective.  Skip Lacour, another outstanding natural bodybuilder, does the one bodypart per week regimen also.  I studied his methods, but once per week doesn't work as well for me.  Still, it worked better than high frequency &amp; high volume combined, which was what I had been doing.
 
Go this from lyle's site. Thanks for pointing me in that direction guys!
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Once again, my point is that if calories are being strictly controlled, the source doesn't appear to make a humongous difference in terms of body composition changes. As well, once you get protein intake to proper levels, fooling around with carbohydate and fat ratios (within the context of identical caloric intakes) don't seem to make a huge amount of difference either. The bottom line still comes down to calories in versus calories out; it's simply that it may be easier to affect calories in (food intake) or calories out (through activity) with different macronutrient breakdowns.
 
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