Need some input

Just remember Joe that while I don't think eating clean versus dirty matters, this is all assuming that you are getting sufficient protein. I always assume that when talking to other bodybuilders, since it would seem to make sense that they would be consuming a ton of protein... but I guess one shouldn't always assume that. Obviously if you are eating a ton of junk and end up getting only 20 grams of protein all day during that period, you aren't going to make very good muscle gains. But if you are getting roughly 200 grams of protein per day and sufficient EFAs, it won't really matter if the rest is from sugar or oats, or whatever else with regards to muscle building.

Good luck with your bulk.

If you are concerned about gaining too much fat, just start out at 18 times your bodyweight in calories and adjust each week based on how much weight you gain. I usually end up going with 20 times bodyweight, but it all depends on how easily you gain fat.
Also remember that estimating bodyfat is horribly inaccurate, so you are better off just seeing how much weight you gain and how you look. I like to keep track of waist measurements to see how it's going. If you are gaining weight and strength is going up, but your waist is staying the same or only growing a very small amount, then you are doing well.
Just remember to adjust your calories upward as you gain weight.
 
I am with you brother!

I am making sure I get as much protein as possible...however after that I am just looking to get in some calories.

I am not going on a "junk" diet...hehe.

Basically what I have learned over the years and from guys like yourself I will put into use this bulk which will basically look like this.

Get as much protein as possible.
Get in surplus of calories from whole foods...this good be a good ol chicken breast, or it could be a double quarter pounder...but it you see what I mean.

I am trying to drink as much skim milk as possible and get in 4 to 5 scoops of peanut butter pre and post workout along with a meal.

I just got to make a effort each day to eat...eat and eat.

Thanks for all your input Tot,

I can see were others get confused with eating clean vs not eating clean...hell I ate perfect for about 2 years in colllege and I also stayed lean...which didn't help with muscle gains.

Thanks again.

Take care!
 
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(stevejones @ Aug. 12 2006,05:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Boris Kleine is. I think that might have something to do with Bryan's decision to put him on the front page of the website
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Borris did not gain most of his size doing the std HST

and anyway, Ronnie is bigger than Boris, so why not train like Borris - if you are willing to take the typical meathead view of the world?
 
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(Aaron_F @ Aug. 12 2006,02:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(stevejones @ Aug. 12 2006,05:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Boris Kleine is.  I think that might have something to do with Bryan's decision to put him on the front page of the website  
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Borris did not gain most of his size doing the std HST

and anyway, Ronnie is bigger than Boris, so why not train like Borris - if you are willing to take the typical meathead view of the world?</div>
So, if he didn't gaint most of his size doing HST, why is he on the page ?  Kind of misleading if you ask me.  As aforementioned in this thread, it's hard to know who to trust.  Irrespective of that, both Boris and Ronnie shoot up, and, if you study Ronnie's bio, he was quite massive before he took up bodybuilding and was simply an amateur powerlifter.  Brian Dobson of Metroflex was amazed at his size and told him he could be a champion the first time he saw him.  To sum up, I don't juice, and I don't have his genetics.    

Initially I decided to do HST because I couldn't hack high volume anymore and needed a break.  I was highly overtrained, and decided the standard HST would be easy, and it is.  So far, it has been productive for me.  If that progress slows, I might try spytech's &quot;modified&quot; HST some time in the future, as he is a very large bber who has genetics more similiar to mine than a pro bber who's on the juice.   He, like me, is good at getting results.  Paying attention to a skinny dweeb who's good in the lab and at writing articles does not help me much, unless he's trained someone who's incredibly fit, and then I'm willing to investigate.   I want proof he knows what he's talking about, and, in bodybuilding, that's in his or his trainee's physique.
 
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(quadancer @ Aug. 12 2006,15:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There ya go man. Hey, to hijack this: when is your powerlifting meet?</div>
That was last weekend (aug. 5-6), and it was fantastic.  Really good experience, with lots of incredibly strong huge guys competing, especially in SHW class.  I competed in the 275 lb class, at a weight of 258.  I didn't want to diet down to get in the 242 class, as I wasn't planning on being a serious contender.  We were weighed the night prior before entering the contest, so some of these guys in my class weighed over 285 after carbing back up.  I got 4th place, I couldn't believe it.  Much better than I expected, especially considering how many of these guys are juiced.  My total was 2095 on the big 3 lifts, and in the process I got some pretty good advice on how to increase my bench and work just a tad on my deadlift form.  The most impressive competition to me was the 165 lb class, because those guys have tremendous strength to weight ratios (but I think some of those guys probably weighed about 175 lbs...they are pretty good at making weight by being carb and water depleted and then carbing back up).  

I think I was the leanest among all the 220+ guys except for maybe 1 guy in the 242 lb class.  The only thing I really didn't like about the meet was all the gear you have to use.  I'm not an advocate of using bench shirts and suits, but you have to do it to compete with these guys.  I used a Titan F6.  A couple of guys already had the Titan Katana which isn't even being sold to the public yet.  Helps to have connections I guess.  I may  enter a 100% raw competition sometime, maybe next year.  We also saw some of the judo competitions, it was all a part of the Rocky Mountain State Games, although held in two different places.  Some events in AUrora, others at the AF Academy.  

 I'm glad I don't have to train with a bench shirt anymore, and am now focused on cutting.  I'm down to about 36&quot; right now.  Going to get down to 34&quot; and then start increasing strength again.
 
Wow. I mean Wow, you did even better than I thought you would! When you told anyone that you use HST for training, did they look at you blankly and say &quot;Huh&quot;?
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(stevejones @ Aug. 13 2006,17:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Aug. 12 2006,15:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">There ya go man. Hey, to hijack this: when is your powerlifting meet?</div>
That was last weekend (aug. 5-6), and it was fantastic.  Really good experience, with lots of incredibly strong huge guys competing, especially in SHW class.  I competed in the 275 lb class, at a weight of 258.  I didn't want to diet down to get in the 242 class, as I wasn't planning on being a serious contender.  We were weighed the night prior before entering the contest, so some of these guys in my class weighed over 285 after carbing back up.  I got 4th place, I couldn't believe it.  Much better than I expected, especially considering how many of these guys are juiced.  My total was 2095 on the big 3 lifts, and in the process I got some pretty good advice on how to increase my bench and work just a tad on my deadlift form.  The most impressive competition to me was the 165 lb class, because those guys have tremendous strength to weight ratios (but I think some of those guys probably weighed about 175 lbs...they are pretty good at making weight by being carb and water depleted and then carbing back up).  

I think I was the leanest among all the 220+ guys except for maybe 1 guy in the 242 lb class.  The only thing I really didn't like about the meet was all the gear you have to use.  I'm not an advocate of using bench shirts and suits, but you have to do it to compete with these guys.  I used a Titan F6.  A couple of guys already had the Titan Katana which isn't even being sold to the public yet.  Helps to have connections I guess.  I may  enter a 100% raw competition sometime, maybe next year.  We also saw some of the judo competitions, it was all a part of the Rocky Mountain State Games, although held in two different places.  Some events in AUrora, others at the AF Academy.  

 I'm glad I don't have to train with a bench shirt anymore, and am now focused on cutting.  I'm down to about 36&quot; right now.  Going to get down to 34&quot; and then start increasing strength again.</div>
Congratulations! I really respect that you did it naturally, and knowing that your competition may or may not have. Fourth place is awesome...mad respect!!!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Obviously if you are eating a ton of junk and end up getting only 20 grams of protein all day during that period, you aren't going to make very good muscle gains. But if you are getting roughly 200 grams of protein per day and sufficient EFAs, it won't really matter if the rest is from sugar or oats, or whatever else with regards to muscle building.</div>
I agree with Totentanz. &quot;A calorie is a calorie&quot;, but for BB purposes one has to take into account the quantity (and quality) of protein, carbs and fat he gets from his meals and supplements. The debate about eating clean vs eating dirty comes down to which way allows you to achieve the best ratio. If by &quot;eating clean&quot; you manage to get 100 grams of protein, while by &quot;eating dirty&quot; you get 200, obviously the second option would be better. Being just hypercaloric is NOT all that it takes to build mucle. You can eat a ton of junk food every day, get in 6K calories but nowhere near enough protein (ok, that's a bit difficult but you get the point). Then it's only logical that you're going to get fat.

I guess what Totentanz is trying to say (please correct me if I am wrong) is &quot;Make sure that you get in the right amount of protein, carbs and fat each day and do not worry too much about the rest&quot;.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Congratulations! I really respect that you did it naturally, and knowing that your competition may or may not have. Fourth place is awesome...mad respect!!!</div>
Same here. This is a fantastic achievement for a natural lifter!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Initially I decided to do HST because I couldn't hack high volume anymore and needed a break. I was highly overtrained, and decided the standard HST would be easy, and it is. So far, it has been productive for me.</div>
Just make sure that you follow HST principles, eat right (which I think you do) and I believe you won't be dissapointed.
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Best of luck,
Dimitris
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">now is 3,000 calories a day of burgers the same as chicken breast and brown rice???</div>
No, it's not , because the latter will most likely contain much more protein.
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Anyway, Joe, I believe you now know what has to be done. The only thing that remains is to actually do it!
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Please keep us up to date with your progress, although I'm sure you'll do fine.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
Will do...yeah I know the ropes of eating... have know them for years.

But I have always looked at them as Black and White issues.

Meaning eating clean is eating clean and I would give myself 1 to 2 free days a week.

Now I realize that if I am bulking I need to get in all the recommendations which are protein and carbs but after that its okay to get some extra calories...that the biggest difference I know now.

I used to think getting bigger or bigger muscles was a by product of working out or working out harder.

More sets = more muscle...well obvioulsy I have learned differently over the years...especially since hst.

I now no even the best program (HST) will not work if you are expierenced like myself and do not eat enough.

So I have listened to guys loke Tot, and others who I appreciate there input b/c really intruely if I get in my protein the carbs and fat are no problem...and it is easier while having a (life) to get them from more calorie dense foods.

I guess HST has taught me even nutrition wise that there are easier ways to reach your goals without killing yourself in the gym and trying to eat 4,000 calories a day just from chicken and tuna.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I used to think getting bigger or bigger muscles was a by product of working out or working out harder.

More sets = more muscle...well obvioulsy I have learned differently over the years...especially since hst.

I now no even the best program (HST) will not work if you are expierenced like myself and do not eat enough.

So I have listened to guys loke Tot, and others who I appreciate there input b/c really intruely if I get in my protein the carbs and fat are no problem...and it is easier while having a (life) to get them from more calorie dense foods.

I guess HST has taught me even nutrition wise that there are easier ways to reach your goals without killing yourself in the gym and trying to eat 4,000 calories a day just from chicken and tuna.</div>
There was a time (not too far away) that I used to believe the same things. Thankfully, I know now that my whole BB theory was based on misconceptions. I have learnt a lot (and I mean A LOT) since I joined this forum. But of course I'm still learning...

Make sure that you keep the &quot;Eating for size&quot; article handy while you 're bulking. Everything you really need is in there. Follow Bryan's advice and you can't go wrong.
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Best of luck,
Dimitris
 
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(9to5lifter @ Aug. 14 2006,04:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Obviously if you are eating a ton of junk and end up getting only 20 grams of protein all day during that period, you aren't going to make very good muscle gains. But if you are getting roughly 200 grams of protein per day and sufficient EFAs, it won't really matter if the rest is from sugar or oats, or whatever else with regards to muscle building.</div>
I agree with Totentanz. &quot;A calorie is a calorie&quot;, but for BB purposes one has to take into account the quantity (and quality) of protein, carbs and fat he gets from his meals and supplements. The debate about eating clean vs eating dirty comes down to which way allows you to achieve the best ratio. If by &quot;eating clean&quot; you manage to get 100 grams of protein, while by &quot;eating dirty&quot; you get 200, obviously the second option would be better. Being just hypercaloric is NOT all that it takes to build mucle. You can eat a ton of junk food every day, get in 6K calories but nowhere near enough protein (ok, that's a bit difficult but you get the point). Then it's only logical that you're going to get fat.

I guess what Totentanz is trying to say (please correct me if I am wrong) is &quot;Make sure that you get in the right amount of protein, carbs and fat each day and do not worry too much about the rest&quot;.

Regards,
Dimitris</div>
Yes. That's basically what I meant. You have to get plenty of protein still, but most people think all they can eat during a bulk is chicken, rice and fiberous vegetables. I don't know about you guys, but there is no way I can get in 4000+ calories on that. I probably wouldn't even be able to maintain on that sort of a diet.

Now eating clean while cutting could be a good idea, since you'll feel full longer and so hunger shouldn't be as bad.
 
Tot...not to bother you.

But you have raised my curiousity of what a normal day or two is like for you eating.

Could you post a typical day?

I mean i am thinking if I need 3,000 plus calories and my protein is were it needs to be...then why not have a good ol double quarter pounder with fries.

I know this sounds so outside of the norm...but I am not talking about every meal I am talking about 1 or 2 a day to help meet calorie needs....not protein?
 
I prefer chicken types of sandwiches, as they usually have more protein and less fat.

A typical day... hmm. Lately, I've been eating a big omelet in the morning with a bunch of cheese in it. I like to put a can of tuna inside it, or something I'll put beans or whatever else I feel like having. I like to drink a couple glasses of milk with it usually. It ends up putting me around 800-1000 calories for the day typically. I might eat a bagel or two as well. The bagels I have are low in fat, have 10 grams of protein per serving and plenty of carbs. That could be a couple hundred more calories.
I also like to grate up a couple potatoes and stir-fry them into hash browns in some olive oil. They are really good.

At some point after my workout, I have a shake with protein, milk and olive oil in it, which ends up at about 1000 calories.

If I'm working, then lunch is usually a couple chicken sandwiches of some sort, or maybe some double cheeseburgers if that's the mood I'm in. More milk with it too. This varies, but it usually anywhere from 800-1600 calories. I manage a restaurant, so you know it's not 'clean' food, but it's got a fair amount of protein.
If I'm not working that day, then I'll have spaghetti or some other pasta dish, usually with cottage cheese on the side. I like mixing cottage cheese with spaghetti too, it's pretty good.

Probably a snack at some point. If I'm working, then it might be a high protein bar from the store. I've been eating payday pro bars lately, they have 15 grams of protein per bar, so a couple of those usually hit the spot pretty well.

Dinner is usually something with meat in it. Steak, homemade burgers, chicken, whatever the wife is cooking.

Oh and I'll typically eat something an hour or two after dinner. Probably some cottage cheese or yogurt. Sometimes if I'm real hungry, I'll fix pasta and have that. If I'm short on calories for the day, then I'll really stuff myself at this point.

This sort of a day nets me with plenty of carbs and a fair amount of fat, and I always hit my protein goal or surpass it easily.
 
Yeah, most BBers would crap their pants looking at what I eat. But hey, I'm not fat and plenty of them are.
 
Yeah...well bodybuilders unless they are &quot;natural&quot;...dont really know there ass froma hole in the ground.

If you ever watch any of there videos 90 percent of them use terrible form.

Its amazing though what over eating and anabolics can do for you...which pretty much describes every pro out there.

Dont get me wrong you have to be very disciplined just to train everyday and eat that many calories...but face it the average pro routine is not there most valuable tool for adding muscle.
 
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