R.I.P. HST

People may think of HST as strictly three times per week but their erroneously thinking it doesn't mean it is so. I have gone through periods of using twice weekly HST programs and have gone through periods using 12 full body workouts per week using strict HST principles. I have also gone through back specializationm programs to bring up a lagging body part but the program was still governed by the principles of maximum growth as outlined by HST. I think many people try to put HST in a box with a label on it when, in fact, HST is actually  the box itself to package around a program.

Perhaps Joe's question might be restated to Bryan as to how he incorporates specialized training within the parameters of HST or does he have to deviate from them?
 
Yeah quadancer, I understand that! I guess what I was referring to in my earlier post, and didn't communicate very well, was that if reached our "genetic or natural" maximum, then NO program changes would help. Max is max.

However, I could see reaching a "maximum" for any given "routine" or principles that we are using. For instance, I've used HST vanilla and max-stim for about 18 months now. Well, I'm getting to a point in my weights that doing a full body routine is too much, at those weights, especially three times a week! So, going forward, I'm splitting into a push/pull split, going mon, wed, and fri, alternating the A and B routines.

If I had continued doing full body max stim, I wouldn't be able to "grow" any more because I can't increase my weights. My body is telling me something...

Oh quad, have fun with the strength routine. It's great seeing those "numbers" go up!

Happy lifting all!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Which would lead me to believe that you have to get away from fullbody workouts.</div>
HST doesnt have to be fullbody,you can do an A) B) push/pull split 6 days a wk
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Because if you are going to specialize then you have to pick 1 or at best 2 bodyparts and specialize and then train other muscle groups at maintenance.</div>
why cant you do that on HST either push/pull or fullbody,all you have to do is work the target muscles HST and the others at maintanance
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For example: Lets say a guys starts trainigh HST and has never lifted before once he gets close to his genetic potetial is training full body going to limit any further growth or are the limits more genetic...and not the training.</div>
it doesnt matter what type of training you do eventually you will reach your genetic limits.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Obviously from my readings a LOT of experts think you get away from fullbody workouts</div>
most experts are selling something,so they need to sell you something different,also as posted above HST isnt fullbody.
 
My response is in bold and underline...I appologize I somehow messed up the quotes
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Because if you are going to specialize then you have to pick 1 or at best 2 bodyparts and specialize and then train other muscle groups at maintenance.</div>
why cant you do that on HST either push/pull or fullbody,all you have to do is work the target muscles HST and the others at maintanance  
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yes you can do that?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For example: Lets say a guys starts trainigh HST and has never lifted before once he gets close to his genetic potetial is training full body going to limit any further growth or are the limits more genetic...and not the training.</div>
it doesnt matter what type of training you do eventually you will reach your genetic limits.

this is correct.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Obviously from my readings a LOT of experts think you get away from fullbody workouts</div>
most experts are selling something,so they need to sell you something different,also as posted above HST isnt fullbody.

<u>I know that HST is principals to hypertrophy...but the fact of the matter is go on any forum and ask them what they think of HST and 99% of the people will relate to HST 2 ways.

3 days a week with progression built in.
6 days a week with upper / lower split with progression built in.

If you do not believe the above statement go over to BR.com or Cluth fitness or JCD fitness and read the write up about HST.

These are some of the leading EXPERTS in the fitness field and they relate to HST in there articles the same way as written above.

Now they understand that HST is prinicpals but the way its packaged to the average guy see it as I stated above.

If not then anything that causes a progressive load, and SD or deloading would be called HST training.
</u>
 
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(Old and Grey @ Feb. 14 2010,1:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Perhaps Joe's question might be restated to Bryan as to how he incorporates specialized training within the parameters of HST or does he have to deviate from them?</div>
Yes this is my question...thanks for helping me out what only took me 2,000 words to say!
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I suck at communciation....LOL.
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Also to expand to Faz comments about HST being principals.

We all get that its principals but here is my thing.

HSt was found on research at the time that lead bryant to believe that it was best to train a muscle often ( 3 times a week) because it kept protein synthesis elevated.

I hope I am not quoting him wrong here...but I am assuming through his research he decided that the increase in protein synthesis and the window for growth was great enough to draw a conclusion to keep volume low and frequency high to make sure that the muscle grew at as fast of a rate as possible.

From that we learned that limited volume (1-3 sets) progressive load and frequency (3 times a week) is what lead to the HST orgininal vanilla routine.

SOOOOO

That being said it doesn't mean other programs don't follow principals or work...it goes back to my original question which was IF at any time in bryan expierence did he ever go to a different setup ?

If he didn't then that will lead into very interesting conversations....which I would love to see and hear.

However if he did specializelize then it would prove that at some point in time it MAY be better to change things up.

I am not so much really interested if he did specialize.

I AM interested and HOPE to hear that he has gotten the size that he is today following traditional HST ( not specializing) ...if he has then that would be awesome!

Why does all this matter?
Because I like my 3 day a week fullbody routine and don't want to specialize if I don't have too.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I know that HST is principals to hypertrophy...but the fact of the matter is go on any forum and ask them what they think of HST and 99% of the people will relate to HST 2 ways.

3 days a week with progression built in.
6 days a week with upper / lower split with progression built in.</div>
or a split(,3 bodyparts A) 3 bodypartsB) 6 days a wk).

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now they understand that HST is prinicpals but the way its packaged to the average guy see it as I stated above.</div>
i agree but it can be manipulated in many more ways than that.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If not then anything that causes a progressive load, and SD or deloading would be called HST training. </div>
not really they may contain 1 or 2 but unless they contain all the principals then they are not HST.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why does all this matter?
Because I like my 3 day a week fullbody routine and don't want to specialize if I don't have too.</div>
as you have already said yourself HST contains many principles as other types of training,so as long as you adhere to them you will grow untill you reach your genetic limits,then no matter what you do it wont matter unless your assisted.
and there is nothing wrong with specialising in HST if you need to bring up certain bodyparts etc.
keep fullbody untill you feel you may need more,volume then do a split or push/pull but all can be HST
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If, like Joe, I wanted to keep to a 3 x weekly schedule but felt that I couldn't do a particular body part justice or to try to 'bring up' a weak part, I'd do a 2 x weekly full-body and then use the other session to focus on the particular body part or a specific lift that I wanted to improve. It should be possible to do enough volume for the lagging part this way whilst still getting plenty of work done for the rest of the body.

Another approach would be to stick with 3 x weekly fullbody w/os and then to use a major compound for your lagging body part first. So, if pecs needed bringing up, you might do some form of bench or dips first when you are freshest, perhaps adding a little extra volume too. Do that for a cycle and then focus on something else.

Personally, I couldn't give a monkey's what muscle-this-that-or-the-other.com thinks HST is. A lot of folks visit the HST site while doing a bit of personal research, perhaps because they want to better understand how the body responds to training. Others are happy to take what someone else tells them to do, do it until it stops working, and then try the next 'new' thing. If they stick at it long enough and keep adding weight to the bar over time, they may even get quite good results.

It seems to me that most successful lifters (ie. those who attain their goals) are the ones that keep on plugging away year after year, keeping track of everything they do, finding out what does and what doesn't work for them and changing things up accordingly. The fundamental principles of training for hypertrophy and strength won't have changed over their whole 'career' so they'll most likely end up with routines that will look a lot like an HST or an SST routine, using movements that fit with their particular goals (eg. powerlifters will be focussing on the three competition lifts and adding in ancillary work).

For me, what's really good about HST as a way to train is that I know exactly what I'm going to lift each time I hit the gym; it's all planned out in advance. There is no &quot;Now then, what shall I do today?&quot; I always want to make my lifts because I know I should be able to get them. The only days that I would be unsure about would be days where I push for new PRs - usually at the end of a cycle. This is very different to what a lot of new trainees will be used to if they've come from a 'put the load up when you can get X reps' background; but it will be very familiar to those who come from a background of power training where load and intensity levels are often cycled and carefully planned out in advance to aid peeking for a meet.

So, for me HST is still very relevant. All the principles can successfully be applied to a new lifter's, or experienced lifter's, programming. I don't view HST as a 3 x weekly full-body routine because it isn't, but even if you use it that way you should still be able to make some good progress until you are close to your GP. It's always a good idea to see what a similarly sized, drug-free lifter might expect to achieve by checking this site:

http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html
 
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(Lol @ Feb. 15 2010,9:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If, like Joe, I wanted to keep to a 3 x weekly schedule but felt that I couldn't do a particular body part justice or to try to 'bring up' a weak part, I'd do a 2 x weekly full-body and then use the other session to focus on the particular body part or a specific lift that I wanted to improve. It should be possible to do enough volume for the lagging part this way whilst still getting plenty of work done for the rest of the body.</div>
I really like this idea.
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(faz @ Feb. 15 2010,6:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">or a split(,3 bodyparts A) 3 bodypartsB) 6 days a wk).</div>
Show me what you mean on this one?
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2010,4:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Feb. 15 2010,6:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">or a split(,3 bodyparts A) 3 bodypartsB) 6 days a wk).</div>
Show me what you mean on this one?</div>
just pick any three bodyparts that suits you,do the 1st three mon,2nd three tue,1st wed,2nd thur,1st fri,2nd sat, etc.
 
First off, Old and Grey, I couldn't have said it better.

QUESTION
Allow me to generalize the question, &quot;Is it possible to get as big as genetically possible using only the 3/week full-body schedule?&quot;

ANSWER
Yes...however (you knew that was coming), your challenges and obstacles will change as your physique reaches its genetic limits. These changes center around increasing weight loads which cause increased inflamation and strain at insertion points and significantly delay recovery of tendons after training.

Considering frequency, there isn't a huge difference between growth rates training 3/week or 2/week...at least in UNTRAINED subjects.

[see image &quot;Fig. 1&quot; and &quot;Fig. 4&quot;]

Things change a bit when considering TRAINED subjects. Take for example the difference between Trained and Untrained lifters and the duration of protein synthesis after training. [See graph comparing &quot;UT&quot; to &quot;T&quot;]

What we see is a significantly reduced growth stimulus in the Trained lifter. Protein synthesis does reach the same peak, but the duration is significantly reduced returning to baseline about 12-16 hours later as compared to 28+ hours later for the untrained (deconditioned?) lifter.

So, in my experience lifting and gathering feedback from other natural lifters, there is little to be gained training less frquently with higher volume. It is harder on the joints and nervous system and protein synthesis rates return to baseline long before the muscle is loaded again.

Nevertheless, there is little to be lost as well. It may very well be that some body parts just work better with a 2/week schedule, especially body parts with problem joints etc. Volume will still have to be managed on a case by case basis.

I personally use a 6/week training schedule hitting each muscle group 3/week. However, I alternate exercises to help me manage tendon recovery and to increase exercise variety. Training legs takes a lot out of me so I generally do better training legs on their own day. Otherwise a 3/week training schedule would accomplish the same thing...and it would allow a full day of rest for the nervous system inbetween workouts.
 
Brian (or anyone),

1) Do you have more info/name of the two studies that are way out on their own in Fig1 &amp; Fig4 in terms of % Increase in CSA? Or are they just untrained subjects?

I've kinda assumed that there must be a parabolic type curve that would fit in relation to the weight lifted and frequency. In other words if you are lifting 70% of your 1RM you could do this frequently but as the weight gets heavier frequency would rapidly drop off (assuming we're trying to keep from frying our CNS etc).

2) I assume the protein synthesis rate results for Untrained vs Trained lifters is from a &quot;traditional&quot; type workout i.e. several sets to failure per muscle. Do you know if this differs for HST in which we do not go to failure and do fewer sets? I guess it's likely to be similar but just with a lower peak?
 
I don't mean to hijack a thread, but I'm not sure else to ask my question.

Is everyone having success with doing the 5's three times a week, during the 5's? I ask because of ALL of my HST cycles in the last 16 months, I always have joints hurting me after 6 weeks. I've never done 5's. I usually did 8's.

However, this last cycle was max stim and I didn't hurt anything at all, doing a 1 on and 2 or 3 off, total body. I found that MORE rest for me gave me my best gains with NO injuries. I seem to end up over training doing it 3 times a week.

Help!
 
CFI, if you are overtraining, it is because your total volume is too high...be it once, twice, three or 6 training sessions per bodypart per week. Many people think you have to do 3 sets of 5's because you did 1 set of 15's and you need to keep the number of reps the same. That is nonsense. What you need to do is keep increasing the TOTAL weight you lift per bodypart each time...regardless fo how many total reps you do.

Also, I believe that you were a competitive power lifter. That takes a toll on your tendons and ligaments. If you need more rest, even if you have lowered the volume but you still hurt, then cut back the number of times you train that bodypart per week. The biggest impediment to growth, short of dying, is injury.
 
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(Old and Grey @ Feb. 23 2010,2:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Many people think you have to do 3 sets of 5's because you did 1 set of 15's and you need to keep the number of reps the same. That is nonsense. What you need to do is keep increasing the TOTAL weight you lift per bodypart each time...regardless fo how many total reps you do.</div>
True, but it just so happens that for a lot of the time keeping the rep total pretty consistent while incrementing loads is a good way to ensure that you are in fact increasing the volume of work done over the course of a cycle.

Eg: Assuming 1RM = 100

1 x 15 x 70-75 =&gt; 1050-1125

1 x 5 x 85 =&gt; 425
2 x 5 x 85 =&gt; 850
3 x 5 x 85 =&gt; 1275

Turns out that 12-13 reps with 85 is just under the equivalent volume for 1 x 15 x 70-75 (12-13 x 85 =&gt; 1020-1105) which means you would need to do 13-14 reps during 5s to ensure you matched (and slightly increased) the work done compared to 15s.

So it often turns out that finishing up with 3 sets of 5 is a good way to ensure that you are increasing load and work done over the course of a cycle without going over the top, though it's certainly not essential to do so to make progress. A lot will depend on conditioning to the exercise; PS response will increase with volume but it is a case of diminishing returns. Add to that the wear and tear on joints etc. and it becomes clear that you have a balancing act on your hands.

Personally, 3 sets during 5s is what I shoot for but, as I get closer to my 5RM, I may have to cluster reps (and perhaps drop a few) to help manage fatigue and to ensure that the overall volume of work is still enough to get a good PS response.
 
So, no one has a problem using that amount of weight during 5's (strain on the body/joints) three times a week? Even if the volume is low, it seems like that load is heavy.

When I ended up over training (on EVERY cycle), I was doing basically the vanilla HST and was ONLY doing one or two sets per workout, per bodypart. My palms would start hurting first. Then joints.

However, with max-stim, I was using heavy loads for a 6 week cycle with NO problems. The max-stim book recommends folks doing that program 4 times a week! Now I CAN'T see it.

Man, competitive powerlifting was MUCH easier than this bodybuilding! All I had to do was eat a lot, lift as heavy as I could, then come home and come back next week! ha
 
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