RAW MEAT EATERS

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(quadancer @ Mar. 27 2008,08:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'd like to find some a.) older b.) massive c.) stronger d.) leaner and e.) natural  weightlifters who are or have used the lowcarb diet for bulking.</div>
Quad,

A buddy of mine uses the low carb raw diet for bulking and strength building and he is friggin huge. He is only 5'9&quot; but the guy weighs in at roughly 220-230. He has very little fat and is freakishly strong.

Now granted he is a meso type so he gains easier but he is proof to me that you can get huge on a diet like that. The best part is that his diet is so healthy to boot. His bloodwork numbers are all exceptional and this is after over 10 years of eating that way.

Quad, so long as you eat enough food you wont lose muscle, just fat. If you are worried about ketosis, eat just enough carbs to stay out of it. It will still be low carb, but not ketogenic.

One aside is that if your muscles are not dense but more just swollen up, you will appear smaller. That is remedied by lifting heavy weights and building dense muscles along with hypertrophy.

I do a &quot;bear&quot; routine as Pavel put forward but slightly altered. Its sort of a hybrid HST. The great thing is that it builds alot of strength and dense muscles. And by adding more sets it will also cause hypertrophy. I like the fact that once the muscles are dense you have an eternal pumped and chisled look!
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(having high levels of intramuscular fat aids this as well which the high fat diet brings about.)

Anyway, just give it a go at low carb/not ketosis and see what happens.
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God Bless
Jeff
 
Damn this post is long!!!
I've just spent loads of my works time and im still not through!!!
Anyone fancying writing me a nice synopsis to save my company going bust?
 
ian, short synopsis: wisslewj asked if there were any raw meat eaters out there, and as you probably have seen, it became a discussion on the health benefits vs. healt hazards. I think wisslewj have done a good job trying to educate us, although getting some fierce resistance from our regulars. Then the thread went dead for a while. Then I revived the thread trying to get some info on eating raw eggs. Oh well, that was probably too short!  
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Thanks wisslewj for all your efforts! At least I've begun looking for organic food, grassfed meat and eating raw chicken eggs (the FDA-equiv. in my country have said it is ok to consume raw eggs). I've read some more on the paleo diet too (Now I'm trying to find an alternative to high-starch carbs for post-workout meals). Interesting stuff.  
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NKL,

if you want any info on paleo raw eating, the following yahoo forum is the best place to go. The forum owner is very well educated and very helpful.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaleodiet/

Likewise I will answer any questions you may have.

The best post workout meal, in my opinion, is the following. I concocted it based on ingrediants and nutrients in each item and also based on post workout needs.

Raw liver, raw heart, raw honey, egg yolks, and suet.

You have your BCAA's, nucletides, creatine, fat, carbs, vits and mins from egg yolks etc. The recovery from this is VERY fast for me. I actually notice when I dont use it.

Now, if you are feeling really manly, you can blend all the ingrediants except the suet in a blender with some water and make a &quot;meaty protein&quot; shake! VERY fast absorbion and quickly eaten.
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I gotta tell ya though, all you guys that think you can manly gulp down some nasty tasting protein powders aint nuthin! Gulp down a foul smelly and nasty tasting meat shake and then you are really manly lol.
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Quad, if you wondered what my bud ate it was roughly 3 lbs of raw meat/organs a day, quite a bit of raw fat from yolks and suet, some berries, and sprouts. (I dont agree with the sprouts myself.)

Anyway, that is basically his diet. (Close to mine as well save the massive amounts lol.)

God Bless
Jeff

Anyway,
 
I've recently been learning about raw diets and understand the benefits of eating raw foods. However, for me it will remain fruits and veggies. Plants can grow up in nasty soils and grow the cleanest fruit (meat) on the planet.

Animals are not so clean. Even the cleanest vegetarian animals don't come close. If you want to go by the bible, you should not only avoid pigs and shrimp, but you should cook ALL animal flesh after cutting out the fat.

Jesus even cooked the fish He ate, and the fish He ate was a cichlid, a vegetarian fish!

And don't get me wrong, I happen to agree with it all. That was written thousands of years ago and just now science is catching up to the fact that well it should be illegal to even use the same butcher knife on pork that you'd use on anything else, shrimp contributes to arthritis, and no animal fat accept fish is good for you. Besides being a major contributor to heart/vascular disease, it harbors a lot of pollution that wasn't taken out by the kidneys.

So...I'll eat my fruit fresh off a tree and what little meat I do eat (I'm going vegan eventually) is gonna be COOKED.
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And no I didn't read every post in the thread in case someone else posted the same thing.
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(The Long Run @ Mar. 29 2008,02:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...and no animal fat accept fish is good for you. Besides being a major contributor to heart/vascular disease...</div>
That is incorrect. Correlation does not equal causation. There is no evidence that dietary fat causes vascular or heart disease. There never was. The only study that ever showed something that resembled evidence was the 7 country epidemiological study done by Ancel Keys. Even then, the data that was used to show the so called evidence was available from over 20 countries yet Ancel Keys took only data from 7 countries that agreed with his hypothesis. The full report shows no correlation between dietary fat and heart disease.

There is, however, a correlation between carbohydrate intake and blood lipid levels. The more carbohydrate we eat, the more triglycerides there is in the blood. There is also an inverse correlation between dietary fat and blood lipid levels. The less carbohydrate we eat and thus the more fat we eat, the less triglycerides there is in the blood.

There is evidence that abnormally high insulin levels cause plaque to form on artery wall. Since carbohydrate stimulates insulin secretion and dietary fat does not, it is illogical to conclude that dietary fat causes any amount of atherosclerosis.
 
Martin,

Nice reply and right on the money.

Long Run,

The bible NEVER says you cant eat meat raw. Never says to either. And while jesus did cook his meat at times, its clear other times he did not. At the feeding of the multitudes, those fish were raw and fermented, preserved via drying and salt. It never makes any mention of cooking them before eating. (Would have been tough for such a multitude anyway.) They would HAVE to be dried and uncooked as any other fish would have spoiled over the 3 days.

There is no way to prove that jesus did or did not ever eat raw meat. (though based on tradition he probably ate dried raw fish and lamb.) Also, there is no way to know he ate only one type of fish lol!
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The bit on fat is, as Martin pointed out, totally incorrect. History of many cultures, all high in fat, show exceptional health and no heart disease. In fact they are actually far HEALTHIER then those that dont eat high fat. (Compare them to the people in Southern India that are vegetarian and suffer all sorts of diseases! Lowest life spans on earth.)

There has even been alot of research showing that polys, even &quot;healthy&quot; ones from fish, in excess are actually BAD for health. They are unstable in the body and have been shown to stunt the immune system. Breast milk is only roughly 4% poly! So excess fish is not the way to go. Again, the healthiest traditional cultures ate plenty of saturated fats from animal suets and such. (Do some reasearch on lipid chemistry.)

Finally, RAW veggies are not really healthy. They are loaded in cellulase to start. We dont make an enzyme to break that down. So biologically we are not made to eat those raw as we cant even break them down to get at the nutrition. We are forced to FERMENT them in out guts in order to TRY and break them down. Research fermentation in our guts. Its NOT a good thing at all.

All the fiber as well causes fermentation, again not good. If you want to eat veggies, they should definitely be cooked.

And excess fruits lead to demineralization. And if we are sticking with &quot;nature&quot;, fruit would never have been an abundant part of the diet as it would have been seasonal.

If you study the work of Dr. Weston Price and others, you will see all the healthiest traditional cultures ate alot of meat, organs, and fats and small amounts of carbs. It would not even be possible to eat a diet of ONE type of fish, just fruits and veggies in the real world. Technology may make that possible today, but in the past days, that would have never been.

God Bless
Jeff
 
Sounds good... think i'll have to spend the time reading the whole thing.

I can comment on the raw egg thing though....

back when the gym was the be all and end all for me I used to use raw eggs as a quick source of protein (just the whites). About three times a day i'd drink 10 raw eggs and have some breakfast cereal. Helped me keep up 8+ meals a day. That was when i was at my best, i don't know whether eating the eggs raw made the difference, but it only took 30 seconds, imagine how long it would take to eat 30 boiled eggs a day!?!?!?!

I did always wonder about the denaturing thing, but i could never decide. My knowledge was limited to biology class in school which stated if you cooked anything the protein would denature and be useless, but if that is the case then surely most of the meat we eat (thats cooked for me) would be pointless?

The only problem with the raw egg thing was ..... other people! Everyone else was amazed and would watch me disgusted doing it. So in a way I can sympathise with the resistance wisslewj is receiving. To me downing raw eggs was an every day thing for years, to everyone else eating one raw egg was both horrible and would result in certain death via food poisoning (but im fine now
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I wonder if the old-time BB'ers quit eating raw eggs for the most part in the - was it the '60's? - when they started talking about salmonella poisoning and scaring people away from it. Seems to me that there were a lot of people using eggs raw before that; I wonder what the DEATH/MORTALITY/IMMINENT DOOOM rates were?
I was scared away from it myself, but had only done a short stint with them.
 
Denaturing protein =/= useless
Raw =/= more bioavailable
Weston Price =/= quality information
The healthiest primitive cultures did not all eat plenty of saturated fats from animal suets and such
Cellulase is the eynzyme, not the polysaccharide
Fermentation can be good, cooking vegetables will not remove the residues that are fermented. Depending on the vegetable, it may increase the ferementation potential.
 
You guys do realize that there are loads of other problems associated with eating raw eggs, aside from just salmonella, right? For instance, the bioavailability of the protein is piss poor compared to cooked eggs.
 
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 01 2008,06:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You guys do realize that there are loads of other problems associated with eating raw eggs, aside from just salmonella, right? For instance, the bioavailability of the protein is piss poor compared to cooked eggs.</div>
Raw eggs take 1 1/2 hour to digest while a hard boiled egg takes 3 1/2 hour to digest. A quick calculus tells us that we can eat more raw eggs, and digest them, than cooked eggs in one day. Thus, we can extract more protein from raw eggs in the same unit of time than from cooked eggs.

Is that what you mean by bio-availability?
 
Okay, since you love math so much, take your same figure and apply these numbers:

Protein in raw eggs is only 51% bio-available
Protein in cooked eggs is ~91% bio-available

Have fun eating almost twice as many raw eggs.
 
Learn something every day. Odd how heated whey loses it's proteins availability (over 110 degrees) but cook an egg and it increases. Was Aaron saying something about protein availability factors from cooked meat as well?
Inquiring minds wanna know.
 
Some info about raw/cooked egg whites. Cooked will increase absorption AND prevent avidin from inhibiting biotin absorption (assuming you eat the yolk too).

What I do is discard the whites and have a few yolks around my training. There aren't any well controlled studies in this but some preliminary evidence cholesterol might help with muscle repair and growth.

(Absorption rates of different proteins)
http://www.humankinetics.com/eJournalMedia/pdfs/5642.pdf

&quot;an estimated absorption rate of 2.9 g/h
and 1.4 g/h respectively for cooked and raw egg proteins&quot;

(Raw vs. cooked egg whites)
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/277/5/G935

&quot;Amounts of 5.73% and 35.10% (P &lt; 0.005) of cooked and raw test meal, respectively, escaped digestion and absorption in the small intestine. A significantly higher percentage of the malabsorbed raw egg protein was recovered in urine as fermentation metabolites. These results 1) confirm that substantial amounts of even easily digestible proteins may escape assimilation in healthy volunteers and 2) further support the hypothesis that the metabolic fate of protein in the colon is affected by the amount of protein made available.&quot;

(Cholesterol and muscle growth)
Effect of Dietary Cholesterol on Muscle Hypertrophy with Resistance TVaining: Randomized Double Blind Placebo-Controlled TVial: 1768: Board #56 May 31 8:00 AM 9:30 AM
[C-26 Free Communication/Poster - Nutritional Interventions: MAY 31, 2007 7:30 AM 12:30 PM ROOM: Hall E]

Riechman, Steven E.; Gasier, Heath G.
Texas A&amp;M University, College Station, TX. Email: sriechman@hlkn.tamu.edu
Funded by: US Poultry and Egg Association

We have previously demonstrated a strong association of dietary cholesterol on lean mass and strength gains with resistance exercise training (RET) in older adults, independent of dietary protein.

PURPOSE: To follow up, we conducted a randomized trial in which we administered either 0 eggs/day (3.5 mg/kg lean/day cholesterol, the ATP III recommendation of &lt;200 mg/day), ~ 1 egg/day (7.0 mg/kg lean/day, ~400 mg/day, average American diet) or ~3 egg/day (14.0 mg/kg lean/day, ~800 mg/day) mixed in a standard protein drink. Isocaloric supplemention was administered every 12 hours starting immediately post exercise.

METHODS: Healthy, recreationally active 50–69 year old men and women performed a standard 12 week RET protocol, 3 times a week, 8 exercises, 3 sets of 8–12 repetitions at 70% of 1 repetition maximum. Prior to testing and training, subjects participated in 5 hours of diet education and 6 hours of exercise orientation. During RET, subjects restricted cholesterol to 3.5 mg/kg lean/day and consumed &gt;1.0 g/kg protein. Dietary records were submitted 4x/week to assess compliance.

RESULTS: Lean mass increased 2.4 ± 2.9% and gains were significantly different (P&lt;0.05) between the 1 and 3 egg groups (0 egg=2.5 ± 4.0%, 1 egg 0.7 ± 2.0%, 3 eggs=3.6 ± 2.7%). Composite strength increases (chest +leg press) were significantly greater in the 3 egg group (0egg=14 ± 7%, 1 egg=8 ± 10%, 3 eggs=33 ± 19%). Blood cholesterol was significantly increased in the 1 egg group only (0 egg=+1 ± 23, 1 egg +17 ± 9, 3 eggs=+6 ± 9 mg/dL).

CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest that dietary cholesterol may have a modest role in muscle mass and strength increases and an uncertain role on cardiovascular risk factors when undergoing RET.
 
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(Totentanz @ Apr. 01 2008,08:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Okay, since you love math so much, take your same figure and apply these numbers:

Protein in raw eggs is only 51% bio-available
Protein in cooked eggs is ~91% bio-available

Have fun eating almost twice as many raw eggs.</div>
I didn't say whether I loved math or not. I didn't say whether I ate raw eggs or not. You presume too much. Get some perspective on the discussion instead of taking it so seriously. Huh?
 
Looks like its not just the eggs getting heated now!
I won't bother quoting science or maths (mainly as they're beyond me)!
All i will say is that for a couple of years i consumed up to 30 eggs a day. I did it as it was a quick way of consuming protein. I experienced no negative effects (i'm aware of).
Plus, even if eggs are twice as good for you when cooked, I would challenge anyone to eat 15 cooked eggs as fast as they could drink 30, which is the reason i had them this way.
 
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