Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by wisslewj, Apr 18, 2007.

  1. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Pierre, I am interested in the paleo-diet. Is there an online resource I can research without buying the book?
  2. wisslewj

    wisslewj New Member

    Steve and Tote,

    I havent started yet. I start Monday. I just was thinking that 2 sets would be way to easy based on my past workouts. But Steve you make a good point about the stronger you are the tougher the workout.

    I think I am gonna just drop calves, abs, and arms and add extra sets to my squats, shoulders, and chest. That way I can hit those muscles harder but not over stress the CNS.

    Hey Dr,

    You are right. That is what I have been trying to tell people. The more raw meat and fat ya eat and the les carbs, the faster you cut fat while still building. My buddy has been eating this this way for over 10 years. He is a hyooge powerlifter. And like you, his numbers are all off the chart amazing.

    Maybe people will listen to you since thay know ya. Everyone here thinks I am crazy! [​IMG]


    The paleo book by Cordain is a good start, but his opinion on fat is way off and most other researchers agree that tribal peoples did in fact eat much more saturated fats than Cordain suggests. However, its free at the library (at least at mine) and is a good place to start if you are interested.

  3. <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Apr. 24 2007,18:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Pierre, I am interested in the paleo-diet.  Is there an online resource I can research without buying the book?</div>

    be forewarned that you MIGHT may feel like doodoo the first two weeks. Get through this and you should notice a whole new world.
  4. style

    style New Member

    ''a whole new world. ''

    What are you, alladin?
  5. <div>
    (style @ Apr. 25 2007,06:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">''a whole new world. ''

    What are you, alladin?</div>
    I do eat alot of Halvah, which is made from Sesame seeds, so maybe.
  6. nkl

    nkl Member

    I seem to have a nose for topics that have stirred up some heat in the past (and present), so I will awake this dragon again (just joking).

    My question to those of you who have followed the paleo diet or, like wisslewj, raw meat eating, is there any studies or reports on the health issues on consuming raw eggs? I have heard of biotin insufficiency, but that is unconfirmed.

    A note on the Maker's diet, as quad mentioned in an early post: The paleo diet seems to keep wery close to the commandments in Genesis 1:29 and 9:3. Everything that moves, nuts, berries, fruits and beans seems to be it (add some tubers if you want). Modern hunter-gatherers eat like this. The modern high-starch products are a little off (who thought we should primarily eat grass or poisonous tubers like potatoes?).

    Hm, an egg doesn't move - should we eat them anyway?  [​IMG]
  7. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    Nitrogen retention, muscle mass, potassium. See the first link, it points to the other three on the subject of potassium and its effect on lean tissue. If cooking meat somehow extracts potassium from it and it ends up in the broth, then eating raw meat would prevent this extraction from ever taking place. This would make eating raw meat more effective at building lean tissue than eating cooked meat.

    Very-low-carbohydrate diets and preservation of muscle mass
    &quot;The perception that the VLCARB leads to progressive loss of muscle protein apparently comes from the poorly controlled &quot;Turkey Study&quot; published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 1980 [12]. The authors of this study reported that the protein-only diet subjects were losing nitrogen yet gaining potassium. As pointed out by Phinney [13,14], however, potassium and nitrogen losses are closely related, as they are both contained in lean tissue. This anomaly occurred because the authors assumed the potassium intake of their subjects was based upon handbook values for raw turkey, but half of this potassium was being discarded in the unconsumed broth. Deprived of potassium, these subjects were unable to benefit from dietary protein and thus lost muscle mass [14].&quot;

    12. DeHaven J, Sherwin R, Hendler R, Felig P. Nitrogen and sodium balance and sympathetic nervous system activity in obese subjects treated with a low-calorie or mixed diet. New Engl J Med. 1980;302:477–82.

    13. Phinney SD. Low-calorie protein versus mixed diet. N Engl J Med. 1980;303:158.
    No abstract, sorry.

    14. Phinney SD. Ketogenic diets and physical performance. Nutr Metab (Lond). 2004;1:2. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-1-2.
  8. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    The link below points to a book by Dr. Weston Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. We can see that there is a link between diet and infections. His observations suggest that a diet that includes refined sugar and starch may somehow diminish our body's ability to defend itself against various infectious agents. By extrapolation, we can see how eating [only] raw meat would prevent this degeneration from ever taking place.


    Quote chapter 6:
    &quot;While physical defects acquired by the parent will not be transmitted as such, prenatal deficiencies may be established because of the physical defects of the mother resulting from her faulty nutrition, and these deficiencies, together with disturbed nutrition of infancy and early childhood will go far in determining whether there will be for the child a physical breakdown or whether the normal defense of the body will be adequate to protect it from various infections to which it may later be exposed.
  9. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    (Dan Moore @ Apr. 19 2007,19:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Incidentally higher fruit and vegetable has been shown via large sample size observational studies to reduce the occurance of NIDDM, not inversely.</div>
    Correlation does not equal causation. There is a correlation between more fruits and less NIDDIM but also between more fruits and less sugar/starch. So we can also say there is a correlation between less sugar/starch and less NIDDIM.

    So what did the studies really show then?
  10. Martin Levac

    Martin Levac New Member

    (Dan Moore @ Apr. 19 2007,09:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The thing is there is no documented proof that early man ate their meat either raw or cooked as there generally is no remaining early man to tell us.</div>
    There is documented proof however that we crushed the bones and skull to get to the marrow and brain. I don't know that we ate those raw so I won't argue about that. This suggests that we weren't actually predators per se but instead we were scavengers at some point waiting for the other predators to finish their meals before we went in for the bones and skull.

    In the link below, even though we stopped being scavengers, the practice of crushing bones did not stop.

    Refer to the Dr. Weston Price link. Chapter 15
    &quot;For the Indians living inside the Rocky Mountain Range in the far North of Canada, the successful nutrition for nine months of the year was largely limited to wild game, chiefly moose and caribou. During the summer months the Indians were able to use growing plants. During the winter some use was made of bark and buds of trees. I found the Indians putting great emphasis upon the eating of the organs of the animals, including the wall of parts of the digestive tract. Much of the muscle meat of the animals was fed to the dogs. It is important that skeletons are rarely found where large game animals have been slaughtered by the Indians of the North. The skeletal remains are found as piles of finely broken bone chips or splinters that have been cracked up to obtain as much as possible of the marrow and nutritive qualities of the bones. These Indians obtain their fat-soluble vitamins and also most of their minerals from the organs of the animals. An important part of the nutrition of the children consisted in various preparations of bone marrow, both as a substitute for milk and as a special dietary ration.&quot;
  11. wisslewj

    wisslewj New Member

    i see the old raw meat thread is back lol.

    After 2 years now, roughly, eating raw meat, there is no question that not only does it build more muscle tissue, but its extremely healing on the body overall.

    Raw beef digests alot easier then cooked, especially for ectos.

    Martin, it was Price that turned me toward raw eating. His book was excellent.

    I have tested and modified the diet to find a good balance for my body. I eat roughly 80% of my food raw these days. Lots of raw suet, pork fat, egg yolks, and occassionally avocados and coconuts. All beef is raw as are all the organs like liver, kidney, heart, tongue, and spleen. I eat some cooked chicken and some raw/cooked fish from time to time. Finally, I eat raw honey for some carbs as well as some fruit.

    Thats the bulk. Occassionaly I will eat some taters and even cheat with something else but I always avoid the bad oils, sugar etc.

    In fact, liver and heart make for EXCELLENT post workout nutrition. Healing is phenominally fast with those. (They are loaded in good BB stuff.)

    The only supps I would reccomend are VitD3 (I dont live where UVB is readily prevalant) and Iodine. (I dont eat alot of sea food or salt)

    Anyway, its been great for energy and working out. The science of it is sound, but many think me crazy lol.

  12. jwbond

    jwbond New Member


    If I recll correctly, you claimed 20lbs of lbm from this diet. Surely you have grown more since then or else you would be going to such extremes...

    What are you weighing in at these days?
    What is your bf %?
    How tall are you?

    Have any pics of the transformation?
  13. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Yes, absolutely post some pics, give stats. I have to admire wisslewj's composure during the flak attacks wether or not I agree with him. A tip of the hat and a bow to a very Christianlike manner and response. I could not do as well, and I'm supposed to be a Christian.
    At this point, I'm still studying the matter, but I DO find studies conflicting each other. Some of this just makes common sense, like exposure to bacteria. I never saw so many people get sick so easy until I moved from the hills in Missouri to Atlanta. These folks get colds just because of temperature! My own wife is a city type gal and sanitizes everything, throws out food over 3 days old (much to my disagreements) and has a sensitive stomach, skin, and everything it seems.
    As for the extremes of diet such as raw or ketogenics, it would seem to me that you'd need to actually eat only organics due to the virals and other unnatural bacteria problems - a very expensive proposition indeed. Next would be the problem of the changeover, about two weeks of lethargy from what you two are saying?
    After which brings us back to the conflict of catabolism from ketones - but is it possible that this was not tested beyond the two week adjustment period? I really don't know. Dan?
    I'm not ready to take the &quot;blue pill&quot; yet, but agree that big Pharma is as corrupt as our legislators.
  14. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Who isn't corrupt in the states? At least the ethanol craze (that isn't lowering gasoline prices) has helped put demand on the farmers' side for the first time in decades (perhaps over a century).
  15. wisslewj

    wisslewj New Member


    I was 155 at my max and am 10lbs under that now. I am 5'8&quot;. I carry the majority of my weight in my shoulders, back, and chest (since that is the only part I train for hypertrophy.) The rest I train only for power and strength, not size.

    The 155 was tough to maintain as my metabolism requires quite alot of calories at that weight. Add to that all the martial arts and volleyball and the calorie needs went way up.

    Also, I have had to stop training legs since I messed up my grisolis muscle and that has dropped some weight since I have lost muscle in my legs.

    Basically, to add more mass I would have to up my cals. But frankly its just not worth it to me. Once my leg is better I may as I liked being bigger, but the truth is that I am not trying to get massive. I am more interested in functional power for kung fu and volleyball. The hypertrophy I did to fill out the upper body was purely for aesthetics, but I also trained that area explosively as well.

    Sorry I have no pics online. (I dont own a digital camera.) My build right now, at least on my upper body is very similar to a gymnast build. (No surprise since I train like a gymnast in addition to weights.) Big shoulders, good chest (still need just a bit more on the upper pec and I am doing a hybrid HST now for that.) and definded armes. My lower half is weak looking these days since I cant train it lol. This isnt my pic, but I look almost identical to Sniggel in his pics. And our weight/height is almost identical as well. Only difference is I have an 8 pack and slightly rounder shoulders. (sorry snig no offence meant!) You can see his pic here:


    I can easily bench press more then 1.5x my body weight and can easily shoulder press more then my body weight.

    I have no doubt that if I upped my cals again I could get back to 155 in 2-3 weeks, muscle memory and all. And I could go beyond that if I ate the cals. (heck I could eaily pass that if I ate a bunch of carbs but that would just be fat weight, which I dont want. I prefer to keep the lean look as opposed to the bulky one.

    I started stuck at 125 for YEARS. I added a good 30 lbs of muscle. To me, in under 2 years that is awesome since I spent a lifetime adding nothing. Once I can train legs again I expect to hover around 150 unless my metabolism finally slows down, in which case any excess cals would go toward muscle making.

    Big muscle is a hinderance in martial arts. Power is better. So, for me the 150 ish mark is right around where I like. As an ecto, 30 lbs is good in my opinion. However, I have seen mesos with far better results since they blow up on raw so much faster.

    Oh yeah, my BF% said 5% last time I was on the scale thing. (And this was after a weekend of rare cheating with pasta and stuff lol.) I dont know if thats right or not but there is no place I can &quot;pinch&quot; any fat. My upper body literally does looked &quot;chisled.&quot; However, I must point out that the chisled look is not JUST diet. One must lift heavy friggin weight as well to build up dense muscles, not liquid inflated muscles.

    One thing to remember is that I eat first for health, then train second for functionality, and finally for aestethics. So being big is not a goal for me. But I have little doubt from others I have helped that are big that it works quite well for that as well.

    Hope that answers it all. [​IMG]

    God Bless and have agood night!
  16. wisslewj

    wisslewj New Member


    thanks for the compliment. I too am christian and as such find abusive posting pointless. But like you, I dont always have a perfect temper. It is easier though when you have your sights properlly focused. ;)

    Quad, the short and skinny of the raw diet is basically this. The food is more bioavailable and as such more efficient. This means better absorbtion and materials for the body. There is no &quot;magic&quot; in raw, its just simply more bio available sense it digests better. You still have to hork down big cals to stay big, just not as many. Still have to train hard, you just recover faster. Its far better for health and healing as well which is a plus.

    As for the low carb, same as above. Its far healthier. Leads to far greater energy and strength gains, and promotes a better hormone profile, which means growth.

    if you low carb and you are a meso, ketosis is fine and you will thrive once you adapt. If you are more ecto, I would suggest carbs while training, like raw honey in water, and some right afterwards. Ectos typically oxidize slower and hence need more instant energy to spare muscles.

    Eating grass fed meat is actually cheaper then eating crappy store bought meat. I pay 3 bucks a pound for filet mignon, tbone, etc. If you buy in bulk, say a quarter of a cow, its mad cheap. Almsot everyone will have a grass fed provider within an hour of them. You can find them here:


    Just scroll down and click on your state.

    Also, if for some reason you have no one near you, you can have it shipped to you from this place:


    I order stuff from them from time to time and feed my dogs their raw pet food. Good stuff here.

    Again, I would just advise that if you do low carb it, at least eat your fat raw. The meat one can swap for what they can digest cooked if one must, be it chicken, beef or fish. But the fat you want raw for simple health reasons. Suet can easily be eaten raw as it has no real flavor but is quite healthy. (Fat is also antibacterial so no need to feel squeemish.)

    Anyway, if you have any other specific questions, just ask. I cannot honestly say that the low carb high fat works for building muscle and cutting fat when cooked. (I never tried that so I dont know.) It seems as long as you had really good digestion it would. But for ectos or anyone with poor digestion, I doubt the results would be as good cooked as raw.

    God Bless this raw mess lol
  17. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    I eat raw eggs (chicken mostly) for the last 5 years.  I find them delicious.  Sometimes I eat raw spinach, peppers or other vegetables.  Raw seeds, (flax, almonds etc), whole tahini is a big part of my diet.  I never eat fried stuff.  Generally I eat very healthy.  

    10-12 years ago I ate several times beefstake-tartar.  French recipie for raw meat.  I found it delicious.  But at exactly that time, the mad-cows craze broke up.  So I stopped.

    I have not noticed excetional gains in muscle.  Actually I feel I am stalled, so I will now try MS.  Generally I am healthy but I still get colds.

    I live in the town but work in a village.  So I can buy eggs directly from people who feed their own chicken for personal use.  Assume they are organic, open air grown chicken.  Some times I buy form the super market organic or Omega3 eggs too.

    If it is plain comercial eggs, I cook them.
  18. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Surprisingly, our local Publix supermarkets have the grassfed beef and we will be switching over to that soon. I've been thinking about going back on raw eggs and paying a bit more for the organics, hoping for the bioavailability. So far, that's one thing I'm believing. The jury is still out on the lowcarb mess though. I want mass and strength, and evidently the studies done are conflicting so I'm back to seeking anecdotal evidence.
    I'd like to find some a.) older b.) massive c.) stronger d.) leaner and e.) natural weightlifters who are or have used the lowcarb diet for bulking. I've seen enough to convince me you can cut on it, but here again, conflicting studies on preservation of muscle are enough to tick me off. I don't deem it worthy to even read studies on mice, fatties, or sedentarians. Or the chemically assisted. If I were on Test, Deca, Sust or whatever, I'd not be looking into other things, because that would be doing the trick, proven by thousands of BB'ers using daily.
  19. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Quad, I am with you when it comes to the organic food, but rising food costs are hitting all types of foods in the States, and unfortunately it is something I cannot afford at the time.

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