Slapshotz' SST journal

Hi Slapshotz
I'm interested in your diet. I'm in low carb too. Right now I'm on maintenace from Mon to Fri with less than 100g of carbs only post wo. Then I refeed from Fri post wo till Sun dinner. I refeed with 1,5g of carbs x Kg lbm immediately after Fri post wo, another 1,5g of carbs x Kg lbm after 2 hours and then 10g of carbs x Kg lbm on Sat (first 24 hours) and 8g of carbs x Kg lbm on Sun (second 24 hours
). Calories are +30% over TDEE (more or less) on the week ends.
I'm not satisfied with results (you can see my log), so I would like to change somethings: reduce the refeeding lenght from Fri post wo to Sun lunch, reduce the post wo carbs to 1g x Kg lbm (55g) and reduce the calories on the refeed to +15% over TDEE.

What about your diet? What do you do?

Thanks
 
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(quadancer @ Dec. 29 2007,06:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you're taking your carbs post workout, what on earth are you burning to lift with? Protein?</div>
Pardon Quad,
I'm Italian and my english is not so good, I don't understand this:
what on earth are you burning to lift with? Protein?

If you mean what give me the energy to lift my answer is both fat and post wo carbs
 
Yes, I meant that. Post means AFTER the workout, so you don't have carbs for the workout.
I think you're trying to say PREworkout carbs. Also, unless you're in the 15's, I wouldn't expect much fat burning with weight lifting; that's what cardio is for.
Better?
 
May be we'll go OT. If yes I hope moderators can move this discussion to another 3d.

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(quadancer @ Dec. 29 2007,18:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes, I meant that. Post means AFTER the workout, so you don't have carbs for the workout.</div>
Yes post means after. You have enough carbs for wo from the last meal with carbs. For example: with weekend refeed you have enough carbs to train on Mon/Tue. From Mon post wo meal  you have enough carbs to train on Wed and so on.... You need to read the Anabolic Solution for BB by M. DiPasquale (use emule)

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think you're trying to say PREworkout carbs</div>
No

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, unless you're in the 15's, I wouldn't expect much fat burning with weight lifting</div>

If you don't eat too many carbs, the body use fats as its primary fuel. May be my problem is I'm eating to much carbs and for too long (over 24 hours) so when muscles are full of glycogen the excess is converted in fat

I hope you understand what I mean and may be someone with a better english than mine and knowing about this kind of diet can better explain the concepts
 
Okay, I understand you now bro. You're in the ketogenic state (I believe it's called) and fat burning. I am in the &quot;SeeFood diet&quot; state of eating everything in sight, and I have a large impact on my workouts from the availability of carbs, but you're looking for a different source.
I take Dr. Pasquale &quot;with a grain of salt&quot; as we say, as people are divided in their opinions of his diet plan. I don't know enough about it to comment, so I respectfully bow out of your thread.  
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(I'll wager that your English is much better than my Spanish, Paisano!)
 
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(quadancer @ Dec. 30 2007,08:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I take Dr. Pasquale &quot;with a grain of salt&quot; as we say,</div>
We attorneys say &quot;cum granis salis&quot;, but it means the same thing.

I've been trying a protein sparing modified fast: I've been eating one gram of protein per pound of body weight, plus maybe 100 grams of carbs per day.

It's been effective for losing fat while retaining (most) of my hard gained muscle. But, yeah, it really makes my workouts difficult.
 
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(TunnelRat @ Dec. 30 2007,13:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Dec. 30 2007,08:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I take Dr. Pasquale &quot;with a grain of salt&quot; as we say,</div>
We attorneys say &quot;cum granis salis&quot;, but it means the same thing.

I've been trying a protein sparing modified fast: I've been eating one gram of protein per pound of body weight, plus maybe 100 grams of carbs per day.

It's been effective for losing fat while retaining (most) of my hard gained muscle. But, yeah, it really makes my workouts difficult.</div>
Hey, Tunnel...didn't know you're an attorney.  If you're in the Jersey area, the wife &amp; I are court reporters
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Anyhoo, to get to dot's question, I believe in the KISS principle (for those living under a rock, the Keep It Simple, Stupid!).

When doing my cut last summer, I cut carbs to 150 grams a day, and every week I dropped 10 grams or so a day, until by the end I was eating between 80g and 100g per day.  

I had a helluva time maintaining that intake, as it felt like my mind was mush, but if I wanted to go much below 7%, I would have probably had to maintain 50g to 75g for a period of a week or so, and that was NOT gonna happen.

IMHO, fat loss is the ultimate paradigm in bodybuilding.  It is the EASIEST program to develop, yet the HARDEST to implement.  Most who fail at reaching their fat loss goals simply cave in to the cravings b/4 their target is reached. Fat loss is a mental game, to the extreme.  

Bulking cleanly is, by far, a much tougher proposition.  It's the complete opposite of fat loss.  It's quite possibly the HARDEST program to develop, yet it's the EASIEST to stick to (who here doesn't like eating??).

Just my pence worth, as always
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Ok Slapshotz,
but like to go deeply in your diet (slow bulk diet) if is possible. I'd like to know how many kcal x kg lbm you eat on weekdays and on weekends, how many carbs on the refeed and how many hours you refeed....and so on

PS
For me stay in low or very low carbs is not a problem. From strenght point of view the important is to keep calories hi and wos around 8-12 sets (better with 50-100g of carbs post wo)
 
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(il_dottore @ Dec. 31 2007,04:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok Slapshotz,
but like to go deeply in your diet (slow bulk diet) if is possible. I'd like to know how many kcal x kg lbm you eat on weekdays and on weekends, how many carbs on the refeed and how many hours you refeed....and so on

PS
For me stay in low or very low carbs is not a problem. From strenght point of view the important is to keep calories hi and wos around 8-12 sets (better with 50-100g of carbs post wo)</div>
dot, I don't do &quot;bulk&quot; anymore...any size I've gained in the last several months has been purely by accident.

Also, I don't believe in &quot;refeeds&quot;. They never worked for me in the past. All a &quot;refeed&quot; does is un-do all the painstaking carb/calorie cutting you've done. Other people's experiences may vary widely on this one, but the carb cutting / refeed combo is, literally, taking 2 steps forward and 2 steps back. Again, just my opinion.

Cutting is a SEVEN day a week proposition. Either be prepared to go all the way, or don't bother trying
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As far as my macro intake, that would do you no good. We're two people with most likely two vastly different sizes. You need to do some research to find your own macros.

Just a word of warning, you appear to be over-thinking a very simple process. Start cutting carbs, increase protein/fat intake, increase cardio, and have your bodyfat tested every few weeks to measure progress. Keep it simple.
 
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(Slapshotz @ Dec. 31 2007,16:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
il_dottore said:
Also, I don't believe in &quot;refeeds&quot;.  They never worked for me in the past.  All a &quot;refeed&quot; does is un-do all the painstaking carb/calorie cutting you've done.  Other people's experiences may vary widely on this one, but the carb cutting / refeed combo is, literally, taking 2 steps forward and 2 steps back.  Again, just my opinion.</div>

From what I've read recently that isn't the case Slapz. There are studies indicating that a lowered leptin level can be raised significantly after just a few days of increased calorific intake. My present understanding (based on some reading of Lyle's writing and other sources) is that leptin levels can drop quite significantly after only 5 or so days of dieting (hypocalorific intake) but can be restored almost back to normal after only a couple of days of hypercalorific feeding. This can really help to shift stubborn fat when calories are being quite severely restricted as well as being helpful in the earlier stages of a cut.
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(Lol @ Jan. 02 2008,11:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Slapshotz @ Dec. 31 2007,16:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
il_dottore said:
Also, I don't believe in &quot;refeeds&quot;.  They never worked for me in the past.  All a &quot;refeed&quot; does is un-do all the painstaking carb/calorie cutting you've done.  Other people's experiences may vary widely on this one, but the carb cutting / refeed combo is, literally, taking 2 steps forward and 2 steps back.  Again, just my opinion.</div>

From what I've read recently that isn't the case Slapz. There are studies indicating that a lowered leptin level can be raised significantly after just a few days of increased calorific intake. My present understanding (based on some reading of Lyle's writing and other sources) is that leptin levels can drop quite significantly after only 5 or so days of dieting (hypocalorific intake) but can be restored almost back to normal after only a couple of days of hypercalorific feeding. This can really help to shift stubborn fat when calories are being quite severely restricted as well as being helpful in the earlier stages of a cut.</div>
Hey, lol. You know, you may be absolutely right about the whole &quot;refeed&quot; concept, but despite the studies &amp; gurus saying otherwise, my &quot;real world&quot; results didn't match what the studies said &quot;should&quot; happen. (Boy, I wish I had a dollar for every time THAT was the case!
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)

I tried refeeding for two straight months a couple years ago, and my b/w AND LBM remain unchanged, and my measurements stayed the same, as well.

Look, we all know that dieting is a hard proposition. You walk around every day feeling hungry, lethargic, irritable, and just plain 'ol aggravated. This is where the will power comes in. Some people need an &quot;excuse&quot; to have a binge, because the thought that they can't have a greasy cheeseburger for the next couple of months sends them off into the corner in the fetal position, sobbing like a baby.
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But we all know that this is an individual game, and what works for one may not work the rest of us.

That said, do you know anyone around here who successfully cut using the refeed principles, along with some stats or pics that charted progress? If they have, I'd like to hear their comments. Maybe I did something wrong when I tried it a couple years ago.
Click to expand...
 
I've gotten some help from the &quot;Gameover Cut Diet&quot; book. They insist (and it seems to match my experience) that if you constantly keep cutting carbs out of your diet, it will affect your thyroid and lead to a slowdown in your metabolic rate. They recommend a refeed that amounts to one high carb meal every three days.

I've been trying the high carb meal every three days and find that it helps me to stay on course.

Link...

[Edited to add link to discussion forum -- TR]
 
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(Slapshotz @ Jan. 02 2008,19:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That said, do you know anyone around here who successfully cut using the refeed principles, along with some stats or pics that charted progress?  If they have, I'd like to hear their comments.  Maybe I did something wrong when I tried it a couple years ago.</div>
I did it and it worked just fine for me - but I didn't really give it a thorough test as I curtailed my cut after I got to a bit less than 10%bf (all abs visible but lower two not as defined). I didn't know about leptin levels at the time but had read that a refeed was a good idea.

I think the problem with the term &quot;refeed&quot; is that it implies throwing caution to the wind and tucking in to whatever you fancy. That's not what I did; I merely increased calories and added in more carbs each weekend - just by around 300-500 cals each day over my then current maintenance. I was aiming to lose around a lb a week and managed slightly better than that overall (~24lbs in 20 weeks).

I'll try a similar thing again on my next cut but might well keep going until I am under 8% bf just to see how I get on. I think that's where the real test comes in, both of methodology and of will power.

By the way, I think what you have managed to achieve is really great and I'm not knocking what you did at all. There are several ways to skin a cat.
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I did it 2 or 3 times in past years. It works. refeed mean something like this:
carb 70% prot 15% fat 15% for the fist 24h
carb 60% prot 25% fat 15% for the second 24h

it works, it works if you maintain the fats to very low level.
cals should stay 20-30% below maintence on weekdays, 2xTDEE on first 24h and 10-15% over TDEE on the second 24h. This need to experiment. You need to adjust the length and the cals on your results
 
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(Lol @ Jan. 02 2008,20:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Slapshotz @ Jan. 02 2008,19:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That said, do you know anyone around here who successfully cut using the refeed principles, along with some stats or pics that charted progress?  If they have, I'd like to hear their comments.  Maybe I did something wrong when I tried it a couple years ago.</div>
I did it and it worked just fine for me - but I didn't really give it a thorough test as I curtailed my cut after I got to a bit less than 10%bf (all abs visible but lower two not as defined). I didn't know about leptin levels at the time but had read that a refeed was a good idea.

I think the problem with the term &quot;refeed&quot; is that it implies throwing caution to the wind and tucking in to whatever you fancy. That's not what I did; I merely increased calories and added in more carbs each weekend - just by around 300-500 cals each day over my then current maintenance. I was aiming to lose around a lb a week and managed slightly better than that overall (~24lbs in 20 weeks).

I'll try a similar thing again on my next cut but might well keep going until I am under 8% bf just to see how I get on. I think that's where the real test comes in, both of methodology and of will power.

By the way, I think what you have managed to achieve is really great and I'm not knocking what you did at all. There are several ways to skin a cat.  
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Hey, lol.

First off, no offense taken by your comments. I sincerely mean that.
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As far as the refeed, my major problem was encountered precisely in the area between the 4-pack and 6-pack.

The thing is, to get that last level of leanness, you must strip away the last little bit of fat, along with water. Carbs are totally prohibitive in that sense, so therein lies my problem with the refeed.

Personally, I think any hypocaloric diet will get any bodybuilder with average genetics, intelligence &amp; willpower to the 10% level, maybe even down to 8%.

But to get the last of that 6-pack to pop, I think refeeds will prevent that from occurring. Personally, I did the final thrust of a diet right b/4 a weekend where I knew I would be on the beach the whole time. I didn't plan on staying &quot;uber&quot; ripped for months on end, as the regimen to do so would have, in a nutshell, ruined the rest of my summer.
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I think I probably should have differentiated my comments to apply to those going from &quot;lean&quot; to &quot;ripped&quot; as opposed to &quot;fatter&quot; to &quot;lean&quot;. I think the refeed principles would work just fine for those going from, say, 15% to 10 or 11%.
 
MaxStim - Workout 10

Barbbell Bench Press: 205-20 (Previous 195 - 20)
Weighted Dips - BW+55 - 15 regular reps (2 sets)
Rope pulldowns
Abs
20 Mins. Cardio

Notes: First workout back following an unintentional week of SD. I was knocked out with a wicked sinus infection, requiring the use of an antibiotic.

I knew there was a chance that I might be a tad weak for this workout, but I was nearly mortified when 205 barely made it up for the first couple of reps. By the 5th rep, though, the weight was moving up pretty well, and by the 12th or so rep, it was going up easy.

The dips were fairly easy, as well, but I felt a good burn by the 12th or so rep.
 
Consequently, I've gotten quite ripped and so have dozens of others, using weekly the refeeds that are part of UD2.0, so...
 
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(Totentanz @ Jan. 05 2008,14:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Consequently, I've gotten quite ripped and so have dozens of others, using weekly the refeeds that are part of UD2.0, so...</div>
oh, jeez...here we go.
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I don't want to belabor this point, but please define &quot;ripped&quot;, because obvioulsy your definition is way different than mine.  

I haven't seen a recent pic of you, but in all honesty I don't think I have ever classified you as ripped from any pic I've ever seen.  Further, I never even have considered you to be &quot;lean&quot;.  IMHO, you have nice size.  But lean?  I'm not seeing it.

I've seen plenty of trap pics, and you've indeed got great traps, but a good set of traps doesn't make you ripped.

It's not a knock, just an honest observation.  If there's a pic of your gut somewhere on here showing you full frontal in your &quot;ripped&quot; state, I haven't seen it.  I'll gladly stand corrected if need be.

Anyhoo, I define ripped as a full 6-pack showing, as I attained on my last cut, and also posted pictures of such last summer.  I also enlisted a 9-site caliper to measure BF.  Not perfect, but at least it's some measurement rather than, &quot;I'm ripped&quot;, or, &quot;I'm lean&quot;.

I swear, if I hear another blanket, generally worthless statement like &quot;I got ripped using refeeds&quot; with no pics to prove the change and no empirical data to back it up, I'm gonna toss what few cookies I may have lying in my gut someplace.
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I'm totally open, however, to being proved incorrect with some real data. Pics, BF logs, that kind of thing, showing how someone refeeding with carbs goes from no-pack to six-pack
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I suppose you're right. It seems that &quot;shredded&quot; is an extreme state of &quot;ripped&quot; and &quot;ripped&quot; is an extreme state of &quot;cut&quot;, as is commonly used. So &quot;cut&quot; would be the best most of us will hope for or actually acheive. What you went down to is just really hard to achieve for most guys.
A cut for most will probably involve not much better than a 2 pack, but some guys seem to have less fat deposits around the middle (sadly, not I) and can pull six out with relative ease.
In a way, it's an unfair judgement of a cut, since we put fat on in different ways and areas. I suppose that's why there is the 9-site caliper measurement, which evens things out a bit, measuring overall BF rather than the bellyplate appearance.
Regardless, the issue of refeeds yet remains upon the table.
 
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