Strategic Deconditioning

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Bryan Haycock, May 7, 2008.

  1. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Well, I think some are mixing what Bryan posted with other strength-based theories. The whole heavy-day, medium-day, light-day bit is a strength training technique; it's not HST proper.

    I think it is useful to remember that as the loads you lift increase, the demands on the entire body increase, as well. This requires recovery time, even though we may be growing slower than we like. I think the HIT crowd has a point when it comes to the notion of an "inroad into recovery." HST already take this inroad concept into account, whether intentional or not, by using SD to make submaximal weight productive, ramping the weight steadily over time, and keeping total volume as close as possible to the sweet spot throughout the cycle.

    I don't think impatience should dictate training decisions. In my experience, whenever impatience has crept in, I wound up burned out and sick of training, or injured and losing even more gym time.
     
  2. adb1x1

    adb1x1 Member

    This is a very informative thead.

    I'm not sure who maintains it, but it seems much of what has been said here would be very appropriate for the FAQ.
     
  3. cgutcu

    cgutcu New Member

    Bryan or someone:Is possible to train HST 2 times a week since the begin of the cycle?
    I cant train 3 times a week, my job's take all of my time.
    What can I do for grow in only 2 workouts of 1h each on the week?Do only SD+ the 5's?Extend each phase for 3 weeks each?
    Thank you very much!!
     
  4. Xkane

    Xkane New Member

    <div>
    (adb1x1 @ May 16 2008,12:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is a very informative thead.

    I'm not sure who maintains it, but it seems much of what has been said here would be very appropriate for the FAQ.</div>
    lol
     
  5. navigator

    navigator New Member

    <div>
    (cgutcu @ May 16 2008,9:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bryan or someone:Is possible to train HST 2 times a week since the begin of the cycle?
    I cant train 3 times a week, my job's take all of my time.
    What can I do for grow in only 2 workouts of 1h each on the week?Do only SD+ the 5's?Extend each phase for 3 weeks each?
    Thank you very much!!</div>
    Hi cgutcu,

    You say you have 1 hour for training twice per week. Let me ask you this: Do you have 30 minutes to spare on any of the remaining 5 days?

    When you think of HST, think of exposure to sunlight. If you sunbath twice a week versus 3 times per week, what do you think will happen? Do you think if you dropped your sunbathing to only twice per week, you would gain no tan at all? I think you would still tan, but just not as much as if you sunbathed 3 times per week. I think it's the same with training; you'll still gain muscle, but maybe not quite as fast as if you trained 3 times per week.

    Now if you absolutely cannot train 3 times per week, then that's just the way it has to be, gains or not. I submit that it's better to train 2 times per week than not at all.

    If you go with the twice per week training, I'd keep everything else about the cycle the same: 15s, 10s, 5s, 5s+, and the like. Do this and just see what happens...
     
  6. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ May 16 2008,4:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I just dont see how working your body out with a Full body routine every day can be beneficial at all.

    I believe many other lab-coats would somewhat agree...but I could be wrong.</div>
    from the how soon can i train again article
    The results of this investigation indicated that repeated bouts of the eccentric exercise performed on each of the following 6 days after the first bout did not affect recovery from the first training bout. This is in agreement with a substantial amount of other studies indicating that muscle adapts effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle.

    so as long as i dont go overboard with the workout it seems viable.

    also seing as protein synthesis lasts approx 36hrs,training everyday would keep it going.

    i was going to increase the weight on the two or one heavy day,as much as i can,but keep the other days the same weight reps etc.

    my reason is one for the experiment,and two because i want to increase my fitness and dont want to increase my cardio [​IMG] .
     
  7. cgutcu

    cgutcu New Member

    Thank's.But whit 2 times per week, I will only have 4 workouts instead of 6.I will need to increase the loud more per workout?
     
  8. navigator

    navigator New Member

    <div>
    (faz @ May 16 2008,10:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ May 16 2008,4:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I just dont see how working your body out with a Full body routine every day can be beneficial at all.

    I believe many other lab-coats would somewhat agree...but I could be wrong.</div>
    from the how soon can i train again article
    The results of this investigation indicated that repeated bouts of the eccentric exercise performed on each of the following 6 days after the first bout did not affect recovery from the first training bout. This is in agreement with a substantial amount of other studies indicating that muscle adapts effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle.

    so as long as i dont go overboard with the workout it seems viable.

    also seing as protein synthesis lasts approx 36hrs,training everyday would keep it going.

    i was going to increase the weight on  the two or one heavy day,as much as i can,but keep the other days the same weight reps etc.

    my reason is one for the experiment,and two because i want to increase my fitness and dont want to increase my cardio [​IMG] .</div>

    Okay ... I said what I think is correct.

    Just remember that you're made up of more than just muscle ...  [​IMG]
     
  9. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just remember that you're made up of more than just muscle ...</div>
    i know [​IMG] thats why the light days will be just that.
     
  10. navigator

    navigator New Member

    <div>
    (cgutcu @ May 16 2008,10:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thank's.But whit 2 times per week, I will only have 4 workouts instead of 6.I will need to increase the loud more per workout?</div>
    Sure, if you want to do things that way. Let's say for the 15s, your going to go from 70% 15RM to 100% 15RM, which is an overall increase of 30% across 4 workouts. So if you start out with 70% of 15RM on Workout 1, you will want to increase the weights 3 times to get to 100% of 15RM on Workout 4. Therefore, your percentage increases are 10% for each workout.

    With the desired increment figured, establish the weights you'll be using on Workout 4 (i.e., your 15RM weights). Then subtract 10% from each weight for each preceeding workout so that Workout 1 has you training with 70% of 15RM. Doing this for the 15s gives:

    Workout 4: 100% of 15RM

    Workout 3: 90% of 15RM

    Workout 2: 80% of 15RM

    Workout 1: 70% of 15RM

    Do the same procedure for the 10s and the 5s, as well.
     
  11. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Im glad you are back on this board Charles!

    You are very very helpful!!!
     
  12. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (navigator @ May 16 2008,7:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (cgutcu @ May 16 2008,10:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thank's.But whit 2 times per week, I will only have 4 workouts instead of 6.I will need to increase the loud more per workout?</div>
    Sure, if you want to do things that way.  Let's say for the 15s, your going to go from 70% 15RM to 100% 15RM, which is an overall increase of 30% across 4 workouts.  So if you start out with 70% of 15RM on Workout 1, you will want to increase the weights 3 times to get to 100% of 15RM on Workout 4.  Therefore, your percentage increases are 10% for each workout.

    With the desired increment figured, establish the weights you'll be using on Workout 4 (i.e., your 15RM weights).  Then subtract 10% from each weight for each preceeding workout so that Workout 1 has you training with 70% of 15RM.  Doing this for the 15s gives:

    Workout 4: 100% of 15RM

    Workout 3: 90% of 15RM

    Workout 2: 80% of 15RM

    Workout 1: 70% of 15RM

    Do the same procedure for the 10s and the 5s, as well.</div>
    cgutcu, HST is not about number of workouts or reps or sets. These are just convenient ways to think about load, frequency and TUT. Incrementing loads each session allows us to stay ahead of RBE.

    What navigator says to do is fine (I agree with Joe, it's great to see you posting again Charles). With two workouts per week it would also be fine to take 3 weeks per mesocycle if that's what you want. It is very unlikely that RBE will catch up with you unless you are a very conditioned lifter. That would give you a longer cycle though.

    So, in your case, seeing as you have mentioned before that you don't like doing 15s and 10s, I would suggest doing what navigator said for the 15s and 10s (ie. four workouts each) and then stretch out the 5s by incrementing loads 5% per session.

    Faz: I totally agree with navigator that you have to be careful that you are not stressing your support structures (tendon insertions, myotendinous junctions etc.) too much too often once you are lifting in the 5s as these structures take longer to heal and repair than muscle tissue. So again it's a balancing act. Increasing frequency could see you losing out in the end because you have to take time out to nurse an injury.

    Also, with an increase in your training frequency you will also have to eat more if you want to grow. It can be hard enough to consume enough cals to grow on a 3 x weekly schedule. 6 x weekly will be harder still but you may not have a problem with that.

    Even if you are reducing the loads for a few workouts you are still not going to be resting your CNS as much so fatigue may build faster. Of course, you will get more conditioned to doing this over time.
     
  13. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    <div>
    (Lol @ May 16 2008,3:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, with an increase in your training frequency you will also have to eat more if you want to grow. It can be hard enough to consume enough cals to grow on a 3 x weekly schedule. 6 x weekly will be harder still but you may not have a problem with that.</div>
    Exactly my point.

    This is sometimes why less volume / work is beneficial.

    Not only is there danger of overtraining...but even if you are not overtraining you could be undereating.

    High frequency is a principal that I only follow (outside of 3 times a week) when I want to CUT weight.

    Not only that but the research doesn't really show that much difference between 2 times a week vs 3...so why in the world would you want to train more than 3 times a week...unless you were just wanting to burn more calories.

    I love to workout...but life outside of the gym is always a plus too! [​IMG]

    I have seen the times when I was so dedicated and stayed in the gym...almost every day!

    These times were by far my most least productive years!
     
  14. nkl

    nkl Member

    Concerning the principle of chronic stimuli: If 1-2 sets per muscle group is enough to stimulate growth (depending on conditioning), and not going anywhere near failure (think MS), not going too heavy and eating enough, it is still possible to do a full body bout every day, at least in theory. Now, that might become impractical in real life, but still doable. Compounds are more taxing, so iso work might become a solution on the 'off' days just to keep MPS going. Perhaps 24 hours between workouts might be more practical during 15s or 10s. My concern is, besides overtraining or undereating issues, would this accelerate RBE, and thus shorten the cycle?  [​IMG]
     
  15. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Okay, we are all very familiar with recovering our muscles, joints, and even the CNS.  But what you other areas of the body, like the adrenal glands and endocrine system?  Following are some excepts from an interesting site about Adrenal Glands:

    &quot;Adrenal glands are the anti-stress glands of the body—the reserve which the body falls back on when it is faced with stressful situations. It is their job to enable your body to deal with stress from every possible source, ranging from injury and disease to work and relationship problems. Your resiliency, energy, endurance and your very life all depend on their proper functioning. Your adrenal glands respond to every kind of stress in the same way, whatever the source. Adrenal fatigue occurs when the amount of stress overextends the capacity of the body to compensate and recover from that stress or the combined stresses. Once this capacity to cope and recover is exceeded, some form of adrenal fatigue occurs. The number of stresses, whether or not you recognize them as stresses, the intensity of each stress and the frequency with which it occurs, plus the length of time it is present, all combine to form your total stress load.&quot;

    &quot;Your adrenal glands command powerful hormones to extend their influence throughout your body and your life. No bigger than a walnut and weighing less than a grape, each of your two adrenal glands sits on top of a kidney. From this location they not only significantly affect the functioning of every tissue, organ and gland in your body, they also have important effects on the way you think and feel. You cannot live without your adrenal hormones and how well you live depends a great deal on how well your adrenal glands function. The adrenal glands largely determine the energy of your responses to every change in your internal and external environment. Whether they signal attack, retreat or surrender, every cell responds accordingly, and you feel the results.&quot;

    &quot;The hormones secreted by your adrenal glands influence all of the major physiological processes in your body. They closely affect the utilization of carbohydrates and fats, the conversion of fats and proteins into energy, the distribution of stored fat, normal blood sugar regulation, and proper cardiovascular and gastrointestinal function. The protective activity of anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant hormones secreted by the adrenals helps to minimize negative and allergic reactions to alcohol, drugs, foods and environmental allergens.&quot;


    It is with these thoughts in mind that I wrote what I did in my previous posts.
     
  16. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Very good point navigator.

    I remember our 'resident' doc (Pierre) mentioning endocrine system stress a while back (after Jesse Marunde died and before it was known what the cause was). He warned that if you have recently been suffering from a virus, it was a bad idea to really push yourself in your training until you had been feeling much better for a few weeks. I forgot this recently when I pushed my deads and think that I prolonged the effect of the bug I had. I certainly felt extra tired for a week afterwards.
     
  17. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    All of which lead me to wonder if &quot;they&quot; have not looked into adrenal supplements, stimulants, or are some of the steroids identical to what the A.G.'s distribute? It would seem to me that you could trick the body into thinking everything is all hunky-dory when you were actually intentionally overtraining. OTOH, I would suppose that the recovery ability of steroids has that covered anyway, but you just don't see anyone talking about adrenals.
     
  18. faz

    faz Active Member

    ok guys thanks for the advice.
    but i have wanted to try this again for a while,tried it before but did it on 6x a wk increasing all 6 every wk and it was to hard.

    the thing is if the programe isnt  that heavy during the wk ,IMO it isnt much different than a split,and as we know they work without doing any damage, even a split working 1 bodypart a wk uses most of the muscles ever day.

    i have lifted on and of for over 30yrs and done most routines including HIT,i have had back problems,compartment syndrome of the calfs,and just had knee surgery for cartilage problems,so i am aware of things other than muscles going awire.

    also because i cant run outside anymore,cardio in the gym bores me stiff,and i need to get some more fitness stuff done so this could help by using lighter weights and less time between sets or supersets on the lighter days.

    my idea is to go in on say a monday(heavy) and do
    deadlift
    incline-bench
    pulldowns or chins
    millitary-press
    starting at 95% 12rmr and increasing in reasonable increments every wk untill i reach my 5rm,then see how it feels and either carry on with the 5s or do 3s or cluster etc.

    then for the other 4 days do things like
    leg-press-curls-ext
    lat-raises,machine-presses,cable flyes etc,doing 3x10 at 95% 10rm.

    BTW eating isnt a problem for me [​IMG]  [​IMG] .

    dont know if i  should have 2days of together or have 1 during the wk and 1 at the end,i might just wing that see how it feels.

    BTW charles as the guys above said its great to have you knowledge back on the board [​IMG]  [​IMG] .
     
  19. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Faz,

    Im a little confused what are you goals for doing the above routine?

    I mean if I am reading your post correctly...you are going to be doing 1 heavy day then followed up with iso stuff the next 3 days?

    But you state you hate cardio?

    Are you trying to cut or gain muscle?

    Best of luck!

    Joe [​IMG]
     
  20. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ May 17 2008,1:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Faz,

    Im a little confused what are you goals for doing the above routine?

    I mean if I am reading your post correctly...you are going to be doing 1 heavy day then followed up with iso stuff the next 3 days?

    But you state you hate cardio?

    Are you trying to cut or gain muscle?

    Best of luck!

    Joe [​IMG]</div>
    i hate cardio in the gym ie treadmills etc.
    so i want to train 5x a wk doing some cardio but also using weights as a type of cardio.
    my goals are to gain if possible but improve my fitness levels.
    if i use a heavy day and 4 other lighter days (not all isos) i can keep protein synthesis elevated (hopefully) and still get my fitness levels up.
     

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