Strategic Deconditioning

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Bryan Haycock, May 7, 2008.

  1. navigator

    navigator New Member

    Thanks for the warm welcome back, guys! [​IMG]

    Faz, I'm not saying you shouldn't do the 5-day per week plan. If you really want to do it, and your non-training lifestyle allows it, then give it a try.

    Admittedly, I have spent some time reading over a lot of my HIT materials, lately. The HIT crows has a lot to say about fatigue and overtraining, and think a lot of it is worth consideration. I have been thinking a lot about general fatigue and what happens when we work more than necessary and then overshoot the sweet spot. If I feel knackered, is the time-tension alone enough to keep growth moving along? Will I still grow faster even when I feel burned out? Well, I don't think I have...

    I am starting to think that it is simply impatience that drives us to overshoot the sweet spot, and then we become generally fatigued and don't grow as fast as we might otherwise. I know we all want to reach our goals as quickly as possible, but our training has to be sustainable over the long haul.

    By analogy, more and more medicine won't cure an illness more quickly--it could actually kill you!
     
  2. faz

    faz Active Member

    i understand your point,after over 30yrs of lifting im not in a rush [​IMG] but i am in the gym 5x a wk anyway,if im not doing weights 3x or 2x im doing cardio,so if i can manage my routine correctly it would be more enjoyable than doing an hour of cardio,orHIIT.

    on the heavy day i am going for it but on the lighter days i am going to take it easy,but hope im causing enought stimulus to keep protein synthesis elevated cheers anyway [​IMG] [​IMG] .
     
  3. navigator

    navigator New Member

    <div>
    (Lol @ May 16 2008,6:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Very good point navigator.

    I remember our 'resident' doc (Pierre) mentioning endocrine system stress a while back (after Jesse Marunde died and before it was known what the cause was). He warned that if you have recently been suffering from a virus, it was a bad idea to really push yourself in your training until you had been feeling much better for a few weeks. I forgot this recently when I pushed my deads and think that I prolonged the effect of the bug I had. I certainly felt extra tired for a week afterwards.</div>
    Yes, I've done that a few times, myself. But also, other stresses in life coupled with training can lead to the same outcome--been down that road many times.

    When it comes to the microscopic world, none of us are really as tough as we like to think. It's taken me quite a while to get that through my head. [​IMG]
     
  4. navigator

    navigator New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ May 17 2008,1:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">All of which lead me to wonder if &quot;they&quot; have not looked into adrenal supplements, stimulants, or are some of the steroids identical to what the A.G.'s distribute? It would seem to me that you could trick the body into thinking everything is all hunky-dory when you were actually intentionally overtraining. OTOH, I would suppose that the recovery ability of steroids has that covered anyway, but you just don't see anyone talking about adrenals.</div>
    Hi Quad,

    When it comes to supps &amp; steroids, I cannot help but think, For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction... I know that's a rather severe assessment, but nowadays I'd be too concerned to screw around with an internal organ I cannot live without, and all just to get a little bit bigger muscles.
     
  5. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Faz,

    IMO I don't think weights 5 days in a row is a good idea.

    Here is what I think your options could be...for General fitness or improved cardio and weight loss.

    Option A

    Monday Upper body HST
    Tuesday Lower Body HST
    Wendesday Cardio
    Thursday Upper body
    Friday Lower body

    Option B
    Monday Upper body circuit training, with Lower body Tabata squats.
    Tuesday Slow State Cardio
    Wednesday Same as Monday
    Thursday Same as Tuesday
    Friday Same as Monday

    Option C.....A / B / A split
    Monday upper body workout
    Tuesday Cardio
    Wednesday Lower body workout
    Thursday Cardio
    Friday Upper body workout.

    Any of these 3 options IMO would be better than full body everyday!

    I hope this helps....good luck! [​IMG]

    Joe
     
  6. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When it comes to the microscopic world, none of us are really as tough as we like to think. It's taken me quite a while to get that through my head. </div>

    Interesting point there Nav, and...yeah...welocome back even if I am a little late...been somewhat quiet since I have moved down under. [​IMG]

    But getting back to it, we often desmise the fact that when we are sick (ill) or stressed, many of the vital organs are working already overtime in oredr to counter those effects, so going to gym and pushing it hard is a rather bad if not silly idea, but then again our silly egos have done it to many of us including those of us with &quot;expert&quot; status, much to our dismay to find out only that the length of time required to recuperate after we realise our silliness has only been pushed a little further, forcing one to stay out a little while longer.

    It is so very important that we are in tune with our bodies who are entirely capable of telling us that something is not &quot;kosher&quot; and we need to be off for a spell, specially when we have a sickness such as a virus as then our heart is trying desperatelly to keep things under control (making more clean blood available to a certain area, or transporting antibodies there, etc, etc), not to speak about other vital organs who start working extra at the time to keep things under control.

    So..when we ignore this and go to the gym nevertheless we are putting ourselves at risk.

    Although this has not that much to do with SD, it might come at a time when we might as well slot it in...or maybe just go back a little (program wise) and start again when things are back to normal. [​IMG]

    Long rant sorry guys!
     
  7. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ May 17 2008,4:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Faz,

    IMO I don't think weights 5 days in a  row is a good idea.

    Here is what I think your options could be...for General fitness or improved cardio and weight loss.

    Option A

    Monday Upper body HST
    Tuesday Lower Body HST
    Wendesday Cardio
    Thursday Upper body
    Friday Lower body

    Option B
    Monday Upper body circuit training, with Lower body Tabata squats.
    Tuesday Slow State Cardio
    Wednesday Same as Monday
    Thursday Same as Tuesday
    Friday Same as Monday

    Option C.....A / B / A split
    Monday upper body workout
    Tuesday Cardio
    Wednesday Lower body workout
    Thursday Cardio
    Friday Upper body workout.

    Any of these 3 options IMO would be better than full body everyday!

    I hope this helps....good luck! [​IMG]

    Joe</div>
    cheers mate done most of that before [​IMG]
    going to give this a try and see how it goes.
    the only way to find out if something works is to try it out [​IMG] .
    thats why i tried out the experiment on the pre post food intake the other month.

    also thats why i never call another routine unless i have tried it.
     
  8. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Good luck...let us know how it goes!

    Joe
     
  9. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    <div>
    (QuantumPositron @ May 15 2008,10:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bryan,

    Your rationale is compelling as always.  I am continuously impressed with how much analysis lies below the surface of HST.  The post-workout FSR studies definitely suggest higher frequency for more experienced lifters.   Is it certain though, that other effects of high frequency training won't offset the apparent advantages of such an approach?

    [​IMG]</div>
    Well, I think the success of the method lies somewhat in the hands of the user. In other words, if a person begins to suffer unwanted side effects of 3/week training, then they should either lower the volume/workout or decrease their frequency.

    But, from everything I can gather, and from people reporting back their experiences, it is &quot;fairly&quot; certain that yes, higher frequency training can be done without negating your gains from the unwanted side effects of higher frequency.

    So I guess in short, my answer is &quot;yes&quot;. [​IMG]

    -bryan
     
  10. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

  11. nkl

    nkl Member

    Splendid.  Now we can live in the gym. Talk about chronic stimulation...  [​IMG]
    Seriously, we need to take extra care so we balance out all the negative aspects too if we go for ultra high frequency, or we end up like  [​IMG] .
     
  12. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    <div>
    (nkl @ May 20 2008,8:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Splendid.  Now we can live in the gym. Talk about chronic stimulation...  [​IMG]
    Seriously, we need to take extra care so we balance out all the negative aspects too if we go for ultra high frequency, or we end up like  [​IMG] .</div>
    I agree ....and I guess here is how you would do that.

    Now I personally think 3 days a week full body is plenty but for others who want to try 4 and 5 days I guess this is how you would set it up.

    Vanilla HST during 10's = 30 reps per exercise 3 x a week for 90 reps for say chest, back, legs.

    So take your weekly volume of 90 reps and divide it out over your full body days.

    So for 4 days it =22.5 reps per session.

    5 days = 18 reps per session!
     
  13. pete69

    pete69 New Member

    <div>
    (Bryan Haycock @ May 15 2008,1:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here is an image showing the differences that occur over time as your tissue becomes more conditioned.

    All of us are somewhere on this graph. Those of us who have been training for several years will have an even smaller anabolic response than did these previously untrained subjects who only underwent the equivalent of 1 HST cycle.

    Here was their workout:
    Training was performed 3 d/wk (Mon,Wed,Fri) initially (weeks 1–4) and then only 2 d/wk at the latter stages of the training (weeks 5–8).
    For weeks 1–2, training began with three sets of knee extension exercise performed at a workload equivalent to each subject's 10–12 RM. For weeks 3–4, participants performed four sets at their 8–10 RM. The number of sets was increased to five for weeks 5–6.
    Finally, for weeks 7–8, participants performed six sets at a workload equivalent to their 6–8 RM

    Fig.
    Time course of the elevation in muscle protein synthesis after a single bout of resistance exercise in the UnTrained (UT) and Trained (T) states.
    *Significantly different from rest (P &lt; 0.01).
    Inset: area under the curve for %change in FSR. The 16-h time point (bullet) is taken from Kim et al., (12); this is a fasted measure of FSR that likely represents an underestimate of the fed response at this time point in both the UT and T states.</div>
    I find this study really interesting as I have had my greatest size gains when I was training full body 6x a week. I cut down on the weights somewhat, kept the volume somewhat high and perhaps it was mostly pump growth, but I was clearly my biggest and leanest during the months I trained this frequently.

    It would be nice to see the time course of various measures of muscle growth following a similar program.

    I know i've read that the increase in muscle Mechano-Growth factor is relatively short lived. And based on this study, Fractional Synthetic Rates in muscle are short lived in trained subjects, returning near baseline in 16 hours.

    Now I've seen references to the rise in muscle protein synthesis lasting anywhere from 24-48 hours. This would likely be dependent on training status, volume, intensity, etc. But if one can recover adequately then this would support attempting to train more frequently for muscle hypertrophy.

    If doing this preworkout, postworkout nutrition from whey and postworkout carbs and creatine would be of high priority for the best recovery possible each workout.

    Moderate to low volume, and special attention to technique, such as avoiding lockout to give the joints a break, would make sense as well.
     
  14. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    You must of have very low volume for 6 times a week to work successfully?
     
  15. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ May 22 2008,11:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You must of have very low volume for 6 times a week to work successfully?</div>
    He said highish volume and lowish intensity which makes sense on high frequency.  I can recover from high volume (at lower loads) no problem, but hitting a PR takes some recovery afterward.

    You still seem too hung up on volume Joe.  Progressive LOADing is, was and always will be the key factor in weight-training.
     
  16. nkl

    nkl Member

    That is the problem with higher loads. As I said before, it's probably the best to use higher frequency during 15s and 10s. But there is no law against doing very low volume during 5s, but I'm not sure if it will be enough stimulation for hypertrophy (mechanical stimulation maybe, but TUT and metabolite will be lacking). Fear of frying the CNS would make me cautious.
     
  17. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ May 22 2008,12:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You still seem too hung up on volume Joe.  </div>
    Nope not at all...
     
  18. omega99

    omega99 Member

    <div>
    (Pete69 @ May 15 2008,1:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have had my greatest size gains when I was training full body 6x a week. I cut down on the weights somewhat, kept the volume somewhat high and perhaps it was mostly pump growth, but I was clearly my biggest and leanest during the months I trained this frequently.</div>
    Pete, can you post your weekly routine during this period?   Sorry, I'm a little late on your post, but this intrigues me.  Especially curious to know if you reached any maxes during specific rep ranges.
     
  19. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Omega, you are back and posting too! Welcome back. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Oh, btw, I just came off of an 18 day SD - proud of it too! [​IMG]
     

Share This Page