Strategic Deconditioning

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Bryan Haycock, May 7, 2008.

  1. 9to5lifter

    9to5lifter New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I know i've read that the increase in muscle Mechano-Growth factor is relatively short lived. And based on this study, Fractional Synthetic Rates in muscle are short lived in trained subjects, returning near baseline in 16 hours.
    </div>
    That's the interesting part of this study. Maybe we are only growing 12-16 hours post-workout and then back to baseline. 36-48 hours might only be achieved by someone completely new to weight lifting.
     
  2. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (9to5lifter @ Jun. 17 2008,8:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I know i've read that the increase in muscle Mechano-Growth factor is relatively short lived. And based on this study, Fractional Synthetic Rates in muscle are short lived in trained subjects, returning near baseline in 16 hours.
    </div>
    That's the interesting part of this study. Maybe we are only growing 12-16 hours post-workout and then back to baseline. 36-48 hours might only be achieved by someone completely new to weight lifting.</div>
    that was my idea in training on a 5x a wk fullbody,with heavy and light days,its going ok up to now,enjoying the light days as i have decided to just do what i feel like in those sessions.
     
  3. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (colby2152 @ Jun. 16 2008,10:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Oh, btw, I just came off of an 18 day SD - proud of it too! [​IMG]</div>
    Gotcha beat: I was just out for 23 days on a forced SD (though I suspect you had a lot more fun than I...).
     
  4. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    <div>
    (Bryan Haycock @ May 15 2008,1:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here is an image showing the differences that occur over time as your tissue becomes more conditioned.

    All of us are somewhere on this graph. Those of us who have been training for several years will have an even smaller anabolic response than did these previously untrained subjects who only underwent the equivalent of 1 HST cycle.

    Here was their workout:
    Training was performed 3 d/wk (Mon,Wed,Fri) initially (weeks 1–4) and then only 2 d/wk at the latter stages of the training (weeks 5–8).
    For weeks 1–2, training began with three sets of knee extension exercise performed at a workload equivalent to each subject's 10–12 RM. For weeks 3–4, participants performed four sets at their 8–10 RM. The number of sets was increased to five for weeks 5–6.
    Finally, for weeks 7–8, participants performed six sets at a workload equivalent to their 6–8 RM

    Fig.
    Time course of the elevation in muscle protein synthesis after a single bout of resistance exercise in the UnTrained (UT) and Trained (T) states.
    *Significantly different from rest (P &lt; 0.01).
    Inset: area under the curve for %change in FSR. The 16-h time point (bullet) is taken from Kim et al., (12); this is a fasted measure of FSR that likely represents an underestimate of the fed response at this time point in both the UT and T states.</div>
    It seems that this graph also shows that FSR can only reach a maximum value. The untrained particitents probably made much more microtrauma, yet FSR saturates at the same level. It seems that it took longer to repair the larger amount of damage.

    Also it seems to show that someone trained can increase FSR faster. The peak in FSR is reached much faster. So it looks like the body becomes accostumed to recovering from workouts. [​IMG]

    No?
     
    Bryan Haycock likes this.
  5. omega99

    omega99 Member

    Colby, thanks...it's good to be back...although leaving all those scantily clad chica's in San Diego was not an easy chore.  My SD in SD lasted only 14 days, but I might be shooting to double that at the end of this current cycle.  Sales trip to Asia gonna force this one.

    Has anyone else alterned the timing of protein intake as the result of Bryan's chart?  And to everyone working those high frequency, 5-6 day cycles...routines and results please?
     
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  6. faz

    faz Active Member

    only been doing it for 2wks so cant post any results.
    monday i do heavy day.
    build up to 5rm,
    leg-press
    incline-bench
    bent-over-row
    milltary-press
    pulldowns
    tu,w,th,f,one exercise  for each bodypart from the list below, it depends on availability of equipment or whatever one i feel like.
    3x10 not to faliure,
    chest
    flat-bench,cable-crossovers,dips,machine-press.
    legs
    leg-ext-curl,horizontal-leg-press,deadlift,calf-raises.
    back
    pulldowns (all grips),machine-rows,chins.
    shoulders
    upright-rows,front/rear-laterals,
    tristu,th,
    skulls,tri-pressdowns,
    bisw,f,
    bb-curls,db-hammer-curls,
    20mins cardio.
     
  7. abanger

    abanger Member

    <div>
    (Borge Fagerli @ Nov. 12 2009,7:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...This is something that further research is still, for example in connection with the occlusion effect, but as I said above is a main variable that we achieve full fiber activation and then you get into such a lot of reps at this point that the mechanical workload to compensate for the lower mechanical strain. Studies have also shown that protein synthesis is identical at 60% of 1RM as at 90% of 1RM, but we also know that when the muscle is accustomed to a given load area so the contrast (from low to high or from high to low) may be necessary to create muscle growth. Komi et al showed a presentation on the ECSS where they did not see any significant increase in protein synthesis in advanced powerlifters even if we increased the amount of training at the heavier weights. When, however, exposed them to light weights (around 20RM) saw a growth response again. Had it only been about mechanical load would not be easier weights than those 3RM charges they trained with regularly could create such a response. It is NOK explanation for the Nonlinear / non-linear accrual of heavy / medium / light weights in the same treningsuke has proven to be more effective for advanced practitioners (as a linear progression is as effective for beginners and middle advanced). Muscle growth is so multifaktorielt that there is much we still do not know with certainty.</div>
     
  8. omega99

    omega99 Member

    <div>
    (abanger @ Nov. 20 2009,7:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Borge Fagerli @ Nov. 12 2009,7:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Komi et al showed a presentation on the ECSS where they did not see any significant increase in protein synthesis in advanced powerlifters even if we increased the amount of training at the heavier weights.</div></div>
    not sure why this is posted in an SD forum, but what is meant by &quot;the amount of training at the heavier weights&quot;? increasing volume or load?
     
  9. abanger

    abanger Member

    <div>
    (omega99 @ Nov. 22 2009,9:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (abanger @ Nov. 20 2009,7:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Borge Fagerli @ Nov. 12 2009,7:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Komi et al showed a presentation on the ECSS where they did not see any significant increase in protein synthesis in advanced powerlifters even if we increased the amount of training at the heavier weights.</div></div>
    not sure why this is posted in an SD forum, but what is meant by &quot;the amount of training at the heavier weights&quot;? increasing volume or load?</div>
    Read the bolded part of the quote.
    Volume.
     
  10. abanger

    abanger Member

    <div>
    (Bryan Haycock @ May 07 2008,5:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Q. Is there any other reason to do SD regularly?
    A. Yes. Joints need more time to heal than muscle. Over long periods of heavy loading joints can become chronically inflamed, leading to maladaptive changes to the tendons. There is also evidence of favorable hormonal changes in response to short term detraining in highly trained lifters (i.e. deconditioning). I am also very interested in the impact of training &gt; SD and satellite cell overshoot…but that is still unfolding.</div>
    <div>
    (Borge Fagerli @ Nov. 24 2009,1:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...presentations at the ECSS also showed that two weeks of rest (after a period of heavy loading) gave an unexpected boost in satellite cell proliferation which was somewhat surprising to the researchers. There was no time-course data, so we do not know whether one week is sufficient, but striking a balance between neural and tissue deconditioning would theoretically make one week a viable compromise (9 days to be more exact, last workout friday, first workout monday the week after the rest week).</div>
     
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  11. ZippyDan

    ZippyDan New Member

    I've just reached the end of an 8-week cycle. According to the standard plan, I should take the next 9 - 14 days off for SD.

    That means I would probably restart on Monday the 21st.

    However, on Friday the 25th, I will be taking off on vacation and won't be back until the 4th of January, and it won't really be convenient to work out during that time.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on whether I should:

    1. Take a really long SD, from now until the 4th, almost 3 weeks, before restarting my next 8-week cycle.

    2. Take my normal SD until the 21st, do the first week of my 8-week cycle, go on vacation for a week, then:
    2A. Continue with 2nd week of 8-week cycle.
    2B. Restart at 1st week of 8-week cycle.

    3. Restart my 8-week cycle now and do the first two weeks (with no SD), then go on vacation (call that my SD), and then:
    3A. Continue with 3rd week of 8-week cycle.
    3B. Restart at 1st week of 8-week cycle.

    Thanks
     
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  12. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Zippy, I'd stick with the heavy stuff for another week or so and then take your SD to coincide with your hols. If your joints are bothering you do a lighter back-off week with maybe a few sessions where you push for new 5RMs in your main compound lifts.

    Another approach you could take if you are feeling fatigued from all the heavy work, but your joints aren't too bad, would be to keep the loads high but reduce volume. So instead of 3 x 5 do 3 x 3 or even 2 x 3. As before, you could add in a new 5RM attempt for one lift each session.

    If your joints are fine and you don't feel too fatigued you could just continue to increment your loads for all exercises. I still think it's quite fun to add in some new 5RM attempts or maybe even some 1RM attempts if you are ok to do these.

    Whichever approach you take, I'm sure you'll enjoy your SD. [​IMG]
     
  13. omega99

    omega99 Member

    <div>
    (ZippyDan @ Dec. 15 2009,12:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">1. Take a really long SD, from now until the 4th, almost 3 weeks, before restarting my next 8-week cycle.

    2. Take my normal SD until the 21st, do the first week of my 8-week cycle, go on vacation for a week, then:
    2A. Continue with 2nd week of 8-week cycle.
    2B. Restart at 1st week of 8-week cycle.

    3. Restart my 8-week cycle now and do the first two weeks (with no SD), then go on vacation (call that my SD), and then:
    3A. Continue with 3rd week of 8-week cycle.
    3B. Restart at 1st week of 8-week cycle.</div>
    Zippy, I agree with what Lol said. Extend your current cycle, and use your vacation downtime to SD.

    This might be a good time to experiment. I would stay heavy if you can, cutting volume and maybe incorporating some dropsets for metabolic effects. Or perhaps utilize max-stim to keep a good balance of load and volume. Another idea would be to try a split routine for the remaining time to allocate more energy per bodypart, as well as reduce the frequency of wear and tear on your tendons. The latter utilizing an upper/lower split (with rest on 3rd day) has worked well for me.

    If aching tendons and/or the threat of injury are even remotely an issue, I'd chose option #1 in a hearbeat. Good luck.
     
  14. abanger

    abanger Member

    Monkey Island

    Bryan Haycock speaks about "SD."
    Pro's and Con's of Strategic Deconditioning vs. Deloading during cutting and bulking
     
  15. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

  16. abanger

    abanger Member

    Lol

    The only honest answer is that more research needs to be done for anyone to be certain.
     
  17. semajes

    semajes New Member

    Bryan, is there any more recent research into this topic? It seems that a lot of the old-time lab-coats around here have jumped ship. I personally have had very positive experiences with HST (including SD, although, I have always done at least 14 days, and usually 17) for many years now and didn't realize there was this much controversy about it.

    The funny thing is that the alternative (if you don't "believe" in undoing some part of the RBE through SD), is doing NOTHING about it!!! Or next to nothing. "Deloading", using less volume, or slightly lighter weights (as is often recommended by others), will surely have less effect on undoing RBE than completely ceasing all resistance training, like in an SD. I'm not sure what there is to be gained (in terms of hypertrophy) by continuing to bang away at the highest weight you can push, hoping to put 2 more pounds on the bar every 3 weeks or so. That whole conversation over on Lyle's board was .... disappointing (in many respects).
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2010
  18. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Perhaps if we are going to understand why SD seems to be an effective addition to a hypertrophy program then we are going to have to really understand RBE in its fullest sense.

    I'm fairly sure that, like just about everything else to do with hypertrophy, the effects of SD are most pronounced during the early stages of training. So, once that stage is past and a person is much closer to the size that their hormonal profile will support -- when gains are coming slowly even if training is optimised as much as possible -- it will seem as if SD is doing very little compared to not doing it all.

    Mike Tuchscherer, (strong PL over at RT -- http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/) takes time off from training only very occasionally because he is only thinking in terms of recovery primarily from accumulated CNS fatigue (not deconditioning the tissue). I mention Mike because, as far as I am aware, he eschews the use of AS in his training. He's a naturally big lad and he certainly doesn't have the 'look' associated with AS usage. His approach to training incorporates the use of RPE to attempt to control CNS fatigue as much as possible. He has been able to keep increasing his top level poundages over the course of a year this way. I can't see how this can be just neural improvement; he definitely seems to be continuing to stimulate the MAPKp38 pathways to some degree but maybe this is only by a small amount. If he were to take SD he might be able to increase the growth response slightly on resuming training, but his top level strength might also fall off (CNS issue) which would probably be too much of a sacrifice/worry for someone at his level.

    At intermediate levels of training, I can see SD being very useful as a way to optimise the effect of loading on the MAPKp38 pathways. Whatever deconditioning effect there is on the tissue, it will not be nothing. With everything else in place (diet etc.) that should mean faster gains than would be possible if RBE was being battled against without letup.

    So, for me at any rate, a better understanding of RBE is required to enable me to see which aspect(s) of it is being addressed by SD and the mechanism(s) through which this occurs.
     
  19. semajes

    semajes New Member

     
  20. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2010

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