TangoDown's Vanilla HST Run

Discussion in 'Training Logs' started by TangoDown, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    3+ minutes for 90% it is.

    Now about progression: How should I handle progression? Say 90% to 100% 1RM on singles/85%-95% 1RM on doubles/80-90ish% 1RM on triples w/ leg press over a cycle, moving up by 10lb a week, or just stick at the current % until I feel stronger there and test a new max? I assume I should keep speed sets about 70% 1RM throughout the entire cycle.
     
  2. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Stop thinking in terms of cycles, per se. Your 'cycle' is determined by your progress. Stick at your % until strength is obtained, test and up the weight etc.

    Keep speed sets to 70% 1RM the whole way through. Some would say less, but I personally think 60-70% is the ideal range for this. Anything less just feels like you're playing with a toy. Maybe that's too psychologically-grounded, not physiologically supported, but you have to auto-regulate somewhere.
     
  3. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Gotcha. Basically keep at the % until bar speed increases and everything feels easier, then test for a new 1RM and if a PR happens, start training with the new numbers. When fatigue/stagnation/regression sets in, SD. I'm still training bench and pullups like typical HST and that's cyclical, though I don't see why I couldn't SD my chest only for

    I wish I had tested my 1RM on deadlift, so I'm going to have to consider my 5RM about 87% of a 1RM. I might be undershooting my numbers a bit as a result but I suppose 1-2% margin of error isn't horrible.

    Tomorrow will be, among typical HST stuff for bench and pullups, 4x3 "Dead-Stop" Leg Press @ 80% 1RM
    then 5x4 sumo DL speed work @ 70% 1RM
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  4. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I would not necessarily retest for a new 1RM. I'd bump up by an increment and then assume that the new load is my new 90%/working weight, and rinse and repeat. Your progress should come quickly, considering where you are right now.

    I would think testing a new 1RM every 6-8 weeks is probably about right.
     
  5. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Okay. I'm guessing my 1RM is about 360-370lb right now considering my 5RM. Maybe I'll make 4 plates by the end of the year. That'd be nice.

    If only my sleep was better.

    Thanks, as always, for the guidance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
  6. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    164lb @ 5'8"

    "Dead-Stop" Leg Press (non-plate loaded):
    Warmup: 240lb x 5, 290lb x 3
    4x3 @ 340lb

    Bench Press:
    Warmup: 100lb x 5
    2x15 @ 145lb

    Sumo Deadlift (Speed Sets):
    Warmup: 135lb x 5, 210lb x 3
    3x4 @ 255lb, 2x4 @ 245lb

    Weighted Pullups:
    Warmup: BW x 5
    Belt + 17.5lb x 15 [final rep was questionable]
    ____________________________

    Reduced weight during speed sets because I was feeling like stuff was slowing down noticeably, though after filming the last set, it seemed like it was psychological. Still, work capacity isn't back at 100% yet due to SD so it is what it is.

    Got yelled at by some old woman doing random bullshit in the corner about the plates making noise when they hit the ground. Nicely told her to fuck off. She can go do her bosu ball step ups and 1/4 ROM inverted rows in the cardio room with all the other old people.
     
  7. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    164lb @ 5'8"

    Sumo Deadlift:
    Warmup: 135lb x 5, 225lb x 5, 295lb x 3
    6x2 @ 310lb

    Bench Press:
    Warmup: 110lb x 5
    2x15 @ 155lb

    Weighted Pullups:
    Warmup: BW x 5
    Belt + 17.5lb x 15

    Abs:
    blah blah blah fuck abs
    _________________________________

    Sumo DL bar speed was super fast but I didn't like how rounded my thoracic spine was. I think it was due to the fact that I was deadlifting right behind the concentration curl station so I was setting up differently. This also happened last time I lifted there. I normally lift behind the squat rack where I have ample room but this girl came up and asked to use the squat rack to squat. Of course, I obliged because I'm always happy to see someone squatting in the squat rack, though I wasn't particularly happy when she started doing half squats with like 65lb.

    Next session I'll be doing singles with 325lb and hopefully get to set up in my usual spot.

    The first set of bench press, I don't think bar speed slowed down at all. I at least have 165lb x 15 in me. Hopefully looking at a big PR here this cycle. Maybe I'll finally achieve that 2 plate bench x 1 bench I've been wanting.

    Pullups, the last rep was less questionable than before. I'll consider that my 15RM, which I believe ties last cycle's.

    Hip flexors were tired from sumo DL so I pooped out on decline crunches. Probably is no point in doing them anyway.
     
  8. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    The thoracic section of the spine is naturally rounded, and it is perfectly acceptable to lift with this section rounded, so long as it is tight. Omar Isuf recently posted a good video about this on You Tube, featuring Jeremy Hamilton. And then there's every deadlift by KK ever.

    A rounded back will break more easily but have a lot more trouble in the lockout / once the lower back slows down, a 'straight' back will be the inverse, and rely far more on quad-enforced leg drive for that initial break.

    **When I say 'back', I am only ever referring to the upper back (thoracic). Never ever ever on your life round that lower back.
     
  9. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    I agree, though I've also read that most lifters who aren't pulling elite numbers are probably going to be rounding their lumbar spine concurrently with their thoracic spine just because they're not masters of motor control. I probably fall into that category and from the looks of the videos I shot today, lumbar was probably rounding a bit too. But like I said, I know it was an error with my setup because I was rounded from setup through the end of the set, and I think it was due to being a couple inches from the concentration curl station. I have videos from last cycle of me pulling 315lb (which I posted here) and 320lb for reps and there was no rounding so that pretty much confirms my suspicions.

    If I pull with a rounded thoracic spine I can probably get 405lb off the ground because 310lb flies off the ground like 185lb, but I'd prefer to not develop any bad habits.
     
  10. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    You're missing the point; rounded thoracic spine is fine, and arguably the most natural position.

    Failure to tighten/maintain straightness in that area is not due to what I would categorise as 'motor control', though I suppose it could be categorised as such. I would simply class it as a lack of upper back strength; more chins, more rows, more often.
     
  11. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Nah, I don't mean that thoracic rounding is a motor control issue. I mean that most people who aren't super experienced deadlifters probably have a hard time not rounding their lumbar if they round their thoracic to a notable degree. I'm sure a little bit of thoracic rounding can be expected on a near max attempt as, like you say, it's probably the most natural position and the body tends to adjust to its strongest position at the time under heavy load, but I didn't like the amount I was doing and honestly, considering that my primary goal right now is to build strength, a neutral pulling position is what I'm aiming for. Maybe, down the line if I ever were to fathom competing, I'd start exploring rounded back deadlift to eek out a higher poundage at a meet.
     
  12. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    I might have set up a bit too far behind the bar this time, but nevertheless, bar speed, especially off the ground was slower than expected. 320lb wasn't nearly as slow at the end of last cycle, and I pulled it for 5 reps [I take that back...bar speed isn't THAT much different], but 325lb...well, here's a video. This is single #5, with about 5 minutes between singles.

    https://www.sendspace.com/file/qf0za6

    I only did 8 singles in total. Also, there seems to be some rounding - let me know if at acceptable levels. Note that my pants are sagging a bit so where the lower back ends and ass begins is a bit more ambiguous lol. I reckon slowness might be because of the set up or because I deconditioned so I might not be back at 100% of where I was last cycle.

    Main thing is, I'd like to know if this looks like a 90% 1RM pull or if I should lower the weight and hope that I get back to where I was last cycle. Might have jumped the gun on intervalling back up to my previous #'s.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  13. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Leg Press (nonplate loaded): 340lb 4x3
    Bench Press: 160lb 3x10
    Sumo DL (Speed Pulls): 255lb 4x4, 245lb 1x4
    Weighted Pullups: Belt + 27.5lb x 10
    _________________

    Worked on getting back onto my heels to prevent bar rolling forward before it comes off the ground. Gonna see how it affects my doubles on Tues.
     
  14. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Bar speed felt slower than it was. I realize i cant.expect a weight 10lb under my 5rm to fly up like 225. Getting way onto my heels didnt stop bar from rolling forward and when i did force myself into position where i scrapped my shins i felt much weaker.

    I think im just built to pull with bar away from shins, which is what the bar wants to do and what causes the bar, once doing so, to have the best bar speed. Now ive got to work on pulling from that position because i can probably produce more power if i start there as opposed to having it roll into position.

    Lactic acid was unbelievable today in quads. Very uncomfortable. Dunno why it was so severe today.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Bar is drifting away because you aren't activating/engaging your lats effectively.

    The position that 'feels' most powerful is not actually your best position. This merely indicates that your weaknesses are almost certainly lats and hamstrings (as well as flexibility).

    The bar being out in front of you is;

    a) Scary-dangerous

    b) Not your position of best leverage

    c) Going to increase the strength disparity


    If you were the gym with me, I could fix this in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't let you deadlift in the position you're describing.

    Make sure with your set up that you're sitting backwards into position. Push your ass backwards without bending the knees beyond what is physiologically necessary. Once it can't go back any further, then drop your shoulders and slowly reach down until your can grasp the bar, then pull yourself into position. Absolutely do NOT squat to meet the bar. Tighten your flexed lats and pull the slack out of the bar, then drive into the floor and push it away via heels, not toes.


    I can't stress this enough - do not let the bar get out in front of you. The weakness is in your lats, you need to be holding that bar as close to your body as you can, with shins vertical/almost vertical. If it is front of you, then kiss your lumbar and any progress you think you're going to get goodbye. I think you may also have your shoulders too far in front at set-up, but that's a guess.

    Try videoing from a side-angle that's at an appropriate height.
     
  16. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    I dont think its lat weakness, just not engaging them at all. If it was weakness then i dont see how id be doing heavy weightes pullups.

    I havent been pulling my shoulders back "toward my ass." Just pulling slack out. Ill mess around w cueing the lats next session.
     
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Put your lats in your front pocket.

    The cue for chest/shoulders is - CHEST OUT, SHOULDERS DOWN. This means flex your lats downwards, basically.

    You have a lats weakness in this movement - they may have a good 'absolute' strength level, relative to body weight, but if you can't apply that strength in this position then it's a weakness. Just get your form under control and you'll be fine.
     
  18. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Sumo DL: Warmup, then 325lb 10x1

    Bench: Warmup, then 170lb 3x10

    Weighted Pullups: Warmup, then Belt + 32.5lb x 10
    _______________________________________

    Fixed my sumo deadlift form. Problem was being too far forward. Because my feet do not align with my knees, shins an inch from the bar does not look the same when I force my shins to an anterior position as opposed to when my feet are pointed away. So I modified my setup and also made sure to "put my shoulders in my back pocket." First couple of singles, the bar rolled forward just a TINY bit, so I set up a bit more back for the subsequent reps and the problem went away. Singles 5 through 10 were kind of slow but I suppose that's to be expected. Gave myself about 5 minutes between singles.

    I'll stick with this weight for another week or two and then bump up by 5lb-10lb depending on how things feel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  19. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Leg press (nonplate loaded): 345 4x3

    Bench 175 3x10. I think i easily have 15 reps here. Gonna see how many i can get w 180 next time

    Sumo DL (Speed): 255 4x3

    Since im starting w bar more forward i need to get used to getting the bar back into the right position for subsequent reps.

    Weighted Pullups: Belt + 37.5 x 10.
     
  20. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Forgot my chalk at home so workout was abbreviated and not at the intensity I would have enjoyed. Plus woke up 1000 times last night...sleep study found nothing so not much I can do.

    I'm about 166lb-167lb @ manlet height. Need to up calories a bit.

    Bench: 180lb x 10 (PR + 5lb). Pretty sure I had at least 1 more rep here. If I consider this 75% of my 1RM, then my 1RM would be like 240lb, but I don't think I've got 240lb lol. Will see how if I can get 200lb x 5 up at the end of this cycle and if so I'll try to put up 225lb+ for a rep. Would be very happy if I that goes well. I may try 10 reps with 185lb next session.

    I then did a set of 135lb x 15 because why not?

    Sumo DL: 315lb 2x2, 1x1. Because I had no chalk, my hands started slipping, so I called it a day. Not the strongest hold on the bar throughout all sets either. Also didn't set my lats so had the typical bar rolling forward a bit before lift because I was too preoccupied with my shitty grip. Bar speed was insanely fast though. I'll either repeat the doubles with the correct cue on Fri or just work on singles at 330lb.

    I tried a top down setup this time and it felt pretty much the same as usual, but I suppose it's more efficient so I'll keep giving it a try.

    Weighted Pullups: Belt + 40lb x 8. Think I had 10 in me but again, pullup bar is a fat bastard and no chalk so hand slippage.
     

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