Wannagrow's training diary

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(wannagrow @ Apr. 25 2008,9:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm gonna introduce dealift in my routine but alternate it with squat in A/B/A workout fashion and as I'm about to start the fives on monday I'll axe some of the isos, I think, unless someone thinks this is a very bad idea &amp; I will be happy to discuss. Simplify and win, eh?</div>
Or you could just axe some of the isos and add in deadlifts along with your squats. Deads are good, and the sooner you start them, the sooner you will begin to receive their great help.


As deads are a new exercise for you, you are not likely to be lifting heavy. You could start at about 2/3 of your squat weight or perhaps a bit more, and add 5 kg each workout.

Be sure to read Rippetoe's discussion of the lift carefully. Good luck!
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(TunnelRat @ Apr. 25 2008,10:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(wannagrow @ Apr. 25 2008,9:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'm gonna introduce dealift in my routine but alternate it with squat in A/B/A workout fashion and as I'm about to start the fives on monday I'll axe some of the isos, I think, unless someone thinks this is a very bad idea &amp; I will be happy to discuss. Simplify and win, eh?</div>
Or you could just axe some of the isos and add in deadlifts along with your squats. Deads are good, and the sooner you start them, the sooner you will begin to receive their great help.


As deads are a new exercise for you, you are not likely to be lifting heavy. You could start at about 2/3 of your squat weight or perhaps a bit more, and add 5 kg each workout.

Be sure to read Rippetoe's discussion of the lift carefully. Good luck!  
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I thought of doing (and this is borrowed very heavily from Mark Rippetoe's format):

Workout A:

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Deadlift 1x5
Chins 3x5

Workout B

Squat 3x5
standing press 3x5
Pendlay row 3x5
Dips 3x5

You see, I don't want to do deasdlifts below 60 kg because this is the height I will want to use. I've tried deadlifts before and 60 kg seemed easy and yet I struggle to understand why the squat has always been so damn hard. From reading Rippetoe's book I reckon it's my form.

I normally do 10-15 sets per workout so this wil be the optimum volume.

Nothing fancy thats what I like about it. But I just want to know what isos (if any) are worth keeping?
 
Pend - Lay.
As a method, I usually do deads and squats together...until it gets to be too much for the workout, and then alternate them. They still will come up together, especially since you are now doing heavy work in an exclusive manner each workout; you can put a little more into it since it's all you're doing.
I like to alternate iso's. Bi's one workout and tri's the next, just one exersize for either of them. I find it easy to overtrain arms to where they shrink instead of grow.
 
today was one pretty awful workout..

squat 10,8,2- 60kg
bench 8, 6, 6 I got even less reps than last time. I think I'm getting weaker
deadlift 10, 10- 60 kg
chins 5x bw (i completed the reps but was bloody hard, I'm sooooo weak)
 
What he heck? I'm getting weaker- how can this be?? I'm eating right, getting enough sleep 8 hours +

I'm sorry to say this but HST has let me down, I'm switching to rippetoes ASAP. When should I switch and what weights should I begin with, 85% of my 5RM or what?

When I did a regular split I was at least improving now I'm getting weaker- what should i do?
 
WG: I got your PM and read this log, but there's not enough info here to assimilate your problem. It very well may be that you don't have the problem.
Consider this: not every workout is golden. There are going to be bad days in the gym, but the only really bad day is the one you miss. I don't know your gym age, so that may be a factor, but you can't have one weak workout and immediately say &quot;Oh, I'm getting weaker&quot;, because your very next workout may be exceptional - like my recent PR on the squat...the workout before that had me FAIL at less weight than the PR.
Sometimes it's attitude. I go into my gym with the concept of &quot;I'm just here to kick my a**!&quot; and that works a lot better than days when I feel like &quot;Gee, hope I'm gonna make it!&quot; Sometimes a thermo will help on the weaker days, and that brings me to the next point: what did you do all day before the workout? You can't really expect to follow a physical or stressful day with a great workout. But you CAN get in there and get pumped, do the best you can, do maintenance at least and let the next workout bring you forward. We all have to occasionally chop off a set here and there when the weights get high, so don't give up too easily.
If it were easy, EVERYBODY would be doing it.
As I said, you may not really be getting weaker, and it's not really probable. Another trick is to take an extra day off if you need it, rather than waiting for the weekend or whenever you take two in a row. I rotate my workouts rather than have a weekly schedule, so if work makes me miss, I'm really not off schedule; I just hit it as soon as I can. I haven't worked out this week since wednesday I think, but I'll hit it really hard for fullbody today since it's my day off. No biggie.
Remember: if you think you're weak; you will be.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 26 2008,9:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">WG: I got your PM and read this log, but there's not enough info here to assimilate your problem. It very well may be that you don't have the problem.
Consider this: not every workout is golden. There are going to be bad days in the gym, but the only really bad day is the one you miss. I don't know your gym age, so that may be a factor, but you can't have one weak workout and immediately say &quot;Oh, I'm getting weaker&quot;, because your very next workout may be exceptional - like my recent PR on the squat...the workout before that had me FAIL at less weight than the PR.
Sometimes it's attitude. I go into my gym with the concept of &quot;I'm just here to kick my a**!&quot; and that works a lot better than days when I feel like &quot;Gee, hope I'm gonna make it!&quot; Sometimes a thermo will help on the weaker days, and that brings me to the next point: what did you do all day before the workout? You can't really expect to follow a physical or stressful day with a great workout. But you CAN get in there and get pumped, do the best you can, do maintenance at least and let the next workout bring you forward. We all have to occasionally chop off a set here and there when the weights get high, so don't give up too easily.
If it were easy, EVERYBODY would be doing it.
As I said, you may not really be getting weaker, and it's not really probable. Another trick is to take an extra day off if you need it, rather than waiting for the weekend or whenever you take two in a row. I rotate my workouts rather than have a weekly schedule, so if work makes me miss, I'm really not off schedule; I just hit it as soon as I can. I haven't worked out this week since wednesday I think, but I'll hit it really hard for fullbody today since it's my day off. No biggie.
Remember: if you think you're weak; you will be.</div>
Thanks for yor time, QD, reading my entire log to identify the problem. My day yesterday was not stressful at all and I was looking forward to the workout today, I got a good 8 hours or so uninterrupted sleep, got in the gym at 12.30 PM today after having eaten enough food to fuel the workout. I was in perfect condition and raring to go. Still, the weight which I was able to do 10 reps with last time, this time the SAME weight felt like it weighed a tonne.

I have been training for a good 7-10 months (the first 3 monthswere not proper weight traiing workouts). You could call me a novice so I should be progressing faster than I have been. I take my training seriuoslyand I NEVER miss scheduled workouts yet I do take time off sometimes only because I have to recover not cos I'm lazy.

Overtraining is whats screaming in my head right now but Ive only trained for 4 weeks after SDing for 9 days I don't want to take more time off!

I still think that the 5s that I will do soon should overlap with rippetoe's programme cos I now realise that strength needs to be addressed cos I'm not a skinny guy and I have a BMI of 25.6 bf% 13-14 but the problem is that I'm weak for my size.
 
I suppose you just supplied it: stats and gym age are first things one has to consider.
Now, you're basically in noob territory, so gains come really fast for the first 6 months...then slow down. Tendons and cartilage come later, growing slower than muscle, so sometimes a slow strength gain is good.
The body is an incredibly complex mechanism and even though everything may be in &quot;order&quot; by sight, we don't even understand all that is going on, and sometimes things just make no sense.
Two things: first, make no quick assumptions. A minimum of two workouts or so before making any changes. We get slumps.
Second: You might just require a little deload (not SD) - but they're built into the program too. Now if you're having trouble with overtraining on HST, it usually means one thing: either too large increments or too high starting weights. Consideration must be made for these or you simply just repeat a weight for another workout then progress. We all have different recovery rates.
Third: (I lied) Your split routine was working and it's one change you can make in the middle of the trip. I like to stop doing deads and squats together at some point and alternate them as an example. Splits often make us &quot;stronger&quot; by the simple fatigue management they provide. It could be merely your endurance that is suffering.
 
I have always been skeptical of 'vanilla' HST because of the submax loads. But the more I learn in my own training and research, the more I like HST as a system. As soon as my injury heals up I am going to stick with the HST principles more rigidly.

Starting Strength programs are great for newbies, but once one is well-trained HST is the way to go for SIZE.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 26 2008,6:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I suppose you just supplied it: stats and gym age are first things one has to consider.
Now, you're basically in noob territory, so gains come really fast for the first 6 months...then slow down. Tendons and cartilage come later, growing slower than muscle, so sometimes a slow strength gain is good.
The body is an incredibly complex mechanism and even though everything may be in &quot;order&quot; by sight, we don't even understand all that is going on, and sometimes things just make no sense.
Two things: first, make no quick assumptions. A minimum of two workouts or so before making any changes. We get slumps.
Second: You might just require a little deload (not SD) - but they're built into the program too. Now if you're having trouble with overtraining on HST, it usually means one thing: either too large increments or too high starting weights. Consideration must be made for these or you simply just repeat a weight for another workout then progress. We all have different recovery rates.
Third: (I lied) Your split routine was working and it's one change you can make in the middle of the trip. I like to stop doing deads and squats together at some point and alternate them as an example. Splits often make us &quot;stronger&quot; by the simple fatigue management they provide. It could be merely your endurance that is suffering.</div>
by a deload does that mean that I drop the weight by 10-15% on all exercises or just the one that I stalled on and should I likewise drop the volume? Whats the best way to to deload u think? For this week to facilitate recovery, maybe I should only train twice as opposed to the usual 3x?

What kind of split do u reccomend? bodypart split or still fbw?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">by a deload does that mean that I drop the weight by 10-15% on all exercises or just the one that I stalled on and should I likewise drop the volume?</div> Depends. If you're just having trouble with one lift, why let the others suffer? Fix the one. But if you're having trouble over the board, you may need to step back on it all; you probably came up too fast.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Whats the best way to to deload u think? For this week to facilitate recovery, maybe I should only train twice as opposed to the usual 3x? </div>
IN MY OPINION, which isn't worth much, I either repeat a weight where I can't get the full set in or if disaster strikes, just back up a few workouts or do a highrep workout and see what happens afterward. You can take an extra day off here and there if you feel burnt, it's okay. Even 2x/wk will let you grow.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What kind of split do u reccomend? bodypart split or still fbw? </div>
I'm gonna raise some hackles on this one, but you have 3 bodyparts. Chest, back, and legs. WHEN I split, I will usually do chest and back on one w.o. and legs possibly along with shrugs on the other.
I know this is gonna raise a sh**storm, but there it is.
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Wannagrow,

I am going to answer your question in my log on yours.

I hinted at this before, but you need to consider the reason why such programs as HST, 5x5, and such exist. Sci also hinted at it in a different way.

HST, 5X5, and any periodization technique are forms of advanced programming methods. As is so often the case, necessity is the mother of invention, so why do you think advanced programming models became necessary? Obviously because simple programming was no longer working for people after a certain amount of time. Does that mean advanced programming won't work for you and it should be avoided? Not exactly... so to the next point.

Newbies respond well to any stimulus. A total newbie could ride a bike for 2 miles everyday for a week and the adaption to that would increase his squats. This being the case, this gives everybody evidence and support that their method is better no matter the details of the program. So, would any of the advanced programming techniques you mentioned work for you? Of course they will. The problem is, it is very inefficient, a waste of time, and no newbie should start out of the gates worrying about poundages and 1RMs, meaning the focus on said advanced programming techniques is different and not what a newbie should be focusing on. At the end of the day, or rather the year, you will be stronger and bigger, and it will have happened faster if you just focus on what a newbie should be focusing on. When it comes to training, lots of guys think they can build houses without foundations. Do you really want to be this person?

My advice, as already stated, is to get the dam book---Starting Strength: BBT. Read it once through before you start doing anything. There is a lot more to it than just technique instruction. If you just read this one book, once, it would answer most of your questions and you would know what to do for the next 1-2 years of your training life.

You might even want to start at the end, reading the chapter on programming before returning to the beginning to the chapter on squats.

And as you are so concerned about gaining mass, do the SS routine while drinking a gallon of milk a day and get ready to be accused of taking steroids.

Keep this in mind as well. Even intermediate and advanced trainees should never forget the power of simple linear progression. If you are coming back from a layoff or injury or whatever, always start with simple linear progression and milk it, and then milk it some more until more advanced programming is really necessary.

FWIW, I am not a newbie, but I am doing the SS novice routine to the letter, despite not being able to do some of the exercises I really enjoy, and I completely reset my lifts to zero (well, the bar actually). Why? Because I am coming back from a layoff, I wanted to focus on really nailing down proper form before getting serious about increasing strength, and basically rebuilding the foundation I never really got a chance to build in the first place. Not that I thought building a foundation wasn't necessary, but I had bad and/or incomplete information at the time, and so thought I had built a good foundation.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Depends. If you're just having trouble with one lift, why let the others suffer? Fix the one. But if you're having trouble over the board, you may need to step back on it all; you probably came up too fast.
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in that case, ill just reset on the bench press

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">IN MY OPINION, which isn't worth much, I either repeat a weight where I can't get the full set in or if disaster strikes, just back up a few workouts or do a highrep workout and see what happens afterward. You can take an extra day off here and there if you feel burnt, it's okay. Even 2x/wk will let you grow.</div>

sorry, what do you mean by backing up a workout?
yeah, ill reluctantly train only twice this week because it was due to my foolishness that I pushed too hard on my CNS.

thanks for your support, quad, ill keep u up to date on my progress should it suffer again.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> I hinted at this before, but you need to consider the reason why such programs as HST, 5x5, and such exist. Sci also hinted at it in a different way.</div>

you were a bit too subtle for me. whats the reason?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Newbies respond well to any stimulus. A total newbie could ride a bike for 2 miles everyday for a week and the adaption to that would increase his squats. This being the case, this gives everybody evidence and support that their method is better no matter the details of the program. So, would any of the advanced programming techniques you mentioned work for you? Of course they will. The problem is, it is very inefficient, a waste of time, and no newbie should start out of the gates worrying about poundages and 1RMs, meaning the focus on said advanced programming techniques is different and not what a newbie should be focusing on. At the end of the day, or rather the year, you will be stronger and bigger, and it will have happened faster if you just focus on what a newbie should be focusing on. When it comes to training, lots of guys think they can build houses without foundations. Do you really want to be this person?</div>

The thing is I'm not a TOTAL newbie so I wouldn't respond as well as a completely sedentary person who never picked up a weight in his/her life- who starting strength, is aimed for (oh and I did read starting strength- everything except for the section on the instruction of the power clean). I understnad that you have much experience under your belt and are coming from a layoff but I've trained consistently for 7 months can I honestly expect to add 7.5 kg on my squat every week and squat 3x weekly by adding 2.5 kilos every workout??!! I wouldn't call myself a newbie, a novice would be a more appropriate term since a newbie is someone who, as I said, is a complete beginner with no experience whatsoever and he would progress really quick on the squat due to motor learning. Are you making progress on starting strength? Can you just give me a straightforward yes- or no answer? should I do everything in starting strengthto the T despite me being a NOVICE?? and if not, then how can I modify it??

Ok, enough of the essay.. this is what I have in mind. Please tell me if I should do this, Nippon, or anyone else. I would like some good criticism please..

5RMs:

Squat- 70 kg
Bench 65kg
Press- 42.5 kg
Pendlay row- 52.5 kg
Deadlift- 80kg


Starting tomorrow tuesday, 29th April 2008. I will do
Please tell me if the starting weights are too low or too high bearing in mind my above 5RMs and my training age (7 months)

Tuesday- workout A
Squat 3x5 50 kg
Press 3x5 30 kg
Pendlay row 3x5 40 kg

Thursday:- workout B

Squat 3x5 52.5 kg
Bench 3x5 50kg
Deadlift 1x5 60 kg
chins 2x F

Saturday- workout A

squat 3x5 55 kg
press 3x5 32.5 kg
pendlay row 3x5 42.5 kg

then 2 days off, repeat (alternating workout A and B)

etc.
 
wannagrow, I think the milk part was about taking advantage of the regular exercise routine until it is not giving you much improvement.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> and start drinking a gallon of milk a day for the next 3 months</div>

I was referring to that, electric.
 
That was a bit rough Nippon. Not necessary. I'd hate to be shot down for everything I'd read and forgot or didn't understand completely.
As far as 7 months of training goes, I consider anything under a year to be noob territory - great gains and fatloss still happening to most guys. Also, it really is a lot of information to digest, this bodybuilding thing...considering that half of what you hear out there is nonsense, and it all has to be picked through.
Wannagrow, it looks like you've really simplified: the weights will just have to be felt to see how you do. In the beginning, it depends a lot on your conditioning.
 
That was a bit rough Nippon. Not necessary. I'd hate to be shot down for everything I'd read and forgot or didn't understand completely.
As far as 7 months of training goes, I consider anything under a year to be noob territory - great gains and fatloss still happening to most guys. Also, it really is a lot of information to digest, this bodybuilding thing...considering that half of what you hear out there is nonsense, and it all has to be picked through.
Wannagrow, it looks like you've really simplified: the weights will just have to be felt to see how you do. In the beginning, it depends a lot on your conditioning.
 
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(wannagrow @ Apr. 28 2008,12:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> and start drinking a gallon of milk a day for the next 3 months</div>

I was referring to that, electric.</div>
Sorry, my bad.
 
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