Discussion in 'General Training' started by proteus9, Jan 18, 2005.
wow, great job Jules, Fausto, Dan, and everyone else who contributed.
PDF version of Version 2 (zipped)
Thanks. Version 3 will include more holdover stuff. Including . . .
-- Cluster HST and 912 HST German translations
-- DC and Max-OT deconstructions (which will go on Dan't site too)
-- More cookie cutter routines (at least taking from Lance and Bob's programs)
-- Some reoganization of the chapters
-- One bullet-point page summaries for each chapter
-- Maybe a "Shakeel Asks . . . FAQ"?
And whatever else you guys would like.
Cutting and specializing, volume, etc. Havn't yet figured out while cutting if there's any reason to go 'overboard' with the training, or just stick with a simple 3xweek full body set up.
I'm doing 5xweek full body, with extra volume for chest and arms, ls's, 15's sets and pulse sets, and all 'heavy style'. Currently cutting, going fine and all, just don't want to be spinning my wheels at all on some things. Like metabolic work, i'm afraid i'll get lean but small, i want to keep my muscles full.
What if you had to diet longer than 8-10 weeks?
You could stay at the given load however long you need to, and just work on your endurance and strength conditioning while losing weight. Or you could SD and eat maintenance level and start over. The German-based 912 version is based around this approach, albeit in a more aggressive manner.
What if you started over at the 15's, with no SD?
I'm not a big fan of that, since the p38/strain signal would be significantly weakened. Though theoretically, just the frequent full-body exercising would be a fairly strong impetus to keep muscle mass.
Then, in that case, I'd rather stick at the high-end of loads during post-5s or switch to a PL-oriented strength cycle.
Personally, I'd just take a break from dieting for a few weeks, then go back through the whole thing.
I (finally) finished reading through "Pimp My HST" and found it to be an excellent read. Well done, Vicious! In order to learn it better and to help me understand the material more thoroughly, I took some notes on it. Most of them are just copied right out of "Pimp My HST," a few are paraphrasing, and once in a while I'll summarize in my own words. Hopefully some people on here will find them useful.
Note: Apparently 114 KB is too big to attach to a post, so I'll store it elsewhere and link to it.
Word Version: http://www.savefile.com/files/8325463
PDF Version: http://www.savefile.com/files/7423096
I also took the diet recommendations from Bryan's "Eating for Size" and from Vicious' "Pimp My HST" and combined them into one easy-to-use Excel file. It's pretty simple, just fill in the yellow boxes and it will take care of the rest. You'll need to use your weight in lbs. (Don't fret metrics patrons, I have devised a highly clever solution just for you: apparently if you multiply your weight by 2.2, it magically becomes lbs.! Amazing, I know. Don't ask me how it works, because I'm not familiar enough with voodoo magic to explain it.)
I hope someone finds it useful. Personally, I think it's quite nifty, if I do say so myself.
If you'd like to modify it or spruce it up in any way and re-post it, go ahead. Same goes for the notes.
(Can't upload an Excel file, so again I'll store it elsewhere and link to it.)
Eating for Size Excel Worksheet: http://www.savefile.com/files/7516563
Very nice, Savage.
Vicioius, for metabolic stress, does more fatiguing = more effective?
I have a question related to some earlier discussion as I have just now been reading this thread. Vicious talks about a routine to decouple mechanical strain from metabolic work: if eccentrics are so good at improving hypertrophy and induce little metabolic work, why not just do negatives the whole cycle along with peak contractions to boot? No need to flame me if I am not understanding the concepts, just and idea. What is the real pro to decoupling buy the way? Just that you can conceivably increase the load more and extend the cycle?
i do stretch point movements along with compound movements HST progression so peak contraction you can do yes because you can progress is. But negatives, as i understand it are going beyond the 5 RM and pushing the 1 RM, is that correct?( not the same as drop sets) I get those confused all the time. But the reason to not do negs throughout the whole cycle is because of RBE. If you load that heavy during the 15s, the light weight of the 15s will not provide any hypertrophy because you've used such a heavy weight(muscle adapts to that weight). I think that's about right? I'm not sure about the decoupling thing. Please comment if I said wrong stuff up there,I'm still learning
Oh, I guess I didnt explain that very well. I didnt mean go into the post-5s phase right out of the gate. I mean determine your "max 15 negs" etc and structure the program normally around those. Simply put (not quite but it makes the point), just eliminate the concentric phase of each movement.
Also, is it prefered to attempt to progressivly load the "extreme stretches"? If so, how is that accomplished on the DC style stretches (such as the shoulder one)?
ooooo max 15 neg ok. Do you mean to perform 15 rep negs after you finish the 15s, then 10 rep negs after the 10s are finished and so on?
or do you mean perform a 15 rep neg after each workout during the 15s, and so on?
If you meant the first one then i think it would be ok because the whole point of HST is progression and you are still doing that (15 rep neg lower than 10 lower than 5). But if you mean to perform a 15 rep neg after each workout during the 15s then that would not work because of how your muscles adapt to that 15 rep neg, lower 15 reps would not provide much hypertrophy, im afraid to say none.
I'm not sure what the DC stretches are but i use the stretch from the POF routine. I would think using DC and POF stretches would be the same. You would just find the 15,10,5 rep max of that certain excercise and incoporate it into your HST routine. It is also important to perform the stretch set after your compound because it saps strength(taken from think muscle article Bryan just wrote).
i found the rep maxes for these and basically put them in the HST calc and followed
incline db curl
cable push down(tricep)
overhead tri extension
and i have other workouts i use that i don't add stretches because i don't want to burn out too much such as leg curls, leg press and ab machine(not sure the name).
hope that clears some things up? hah.
clustering is not effective :
That's dealing with metabolic stress, and the hypertrophy achieved was no doubt sarcoplasmic for the most part. Clustering, I believe is effective when the loads are very high, so high that you can only lift them less than 5 times. Of course, clustering the 10s won't be very effective.
Dkm has mentioned that the time spent under tension is less of a factor when loads are very high.
So if I understand doing 6x5x10RM is less effective than 3x10x10RM but 10x1x5RM is as effective as 2x5x5RM ?
Very interessant but what's the explanation ? You lost metabolic stress when you go from 10 reps to 5 reps but don't lose it when you go from 5 reps to 1 rep because at 5 reps metabolic stress is already very low ?
But some studies (like the studies about occlusions and others) also show more strength gains with higher density training (3x10 versus 6x5 for example) so it's not simply sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
That would be my understanding.
Not quite sure about that one. Like you said, metabolic stress shouldn't be an issue, so it would make sense that it's the same. I would assume that it is, though I'd be more than happy to be corrected with reasoning.
Of course it's not all sarcoplasmic; I'm sure a nice chunk of it is sarcomeric as well, but most strength gains are neural adaptation. I think it's probably not a good idea to use strength research to uncover the deeper "secrets" of hypertrophy. Using strength research was what originated many bodybuilding mythologies (or so I remember reading in one of Bryan's articles)
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