Max-Stim questions

Discussion in 'General Training' started by dkm1987, Jun 4, 2008.

  1. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    I've been doing further experiments using rest-pause or max-stim mixed with Matrix movements and doing bilateral comparisons. Doing a set of curls using a weight that produced around 20 reps with 5-10 sec. rest doesn't feel(not very scientific) the same as doing Matrix procedure using rest pause. I found doing a Matrix pattern of:

    1/2 rep up, 2 1/2 reps down, 3 1/2 reps up finishing with 4 1/2 reps down, repeating this for 5 cycles with 10-15 sec. rests produces more inroads, more contractions(50) over a shorter period of time than conventional rep patterns. I had been trying to do 10 cycles, but that was too much. I've started doing full body workouts three days a week using squats, SLD, bench press, rowing, overhead press and supinated pulldowns. I've dropped direct arm work due to the significant effect on this area from the upper body work. The vascular effect that occurs after you finish the cycles is amazing.

    If one of the causes of hypertrophy is the micro-tearing that occurs during the ratcheting of muscle fibers under a load, then this procedure may be useful. This may be easier on those of us who have been lifting for over 40 years and want to use weights that are less joint challenging. I found using 80% of 1RM load difficult on old injuries after a period of time and found in the Max-Stim writings of 60% of 1RM being useful.

    Overfiftylifter-would like to see the moderator's view on having more contractions between rest periods.
     
  2. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    overfiftylifter, I'm no mod and I'm not Dan. However, looking at the Matrix method it would seem to me that it's just another approach to training where fatigue plays a primary roll and lifting with lighter loads is then "apparently" still effective. It will certainly feel very different to a Max-Stim set as this is much more concerned with strain on muscle tissue while keeping metabolic by-products as low as possible; this would seem to be almost the opposite of the Matrix method.

    Using the Matrix method there will likely be some beneficial effects from occlusion but at the end of the day, if strain isn't increasing over a cycle, RBE will catch up with you sooner than it would using Max-Stim. Don't forget that strain on muscle tissue is a key factor in causing a hypertrophic response; just because a load feels heavy due to the effects of fatigue does not make it actually heavy.
     
  3. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (overfiftylifter @ Sep. 06 2008,11:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've been doing further experiments using rest-pause or max-stim mixed with Matrix movements</div>
    I don't think rest-pause and max-stim are related. Dan Moore's concept of getting the weight completely out of your hands for a given M-time is very different from rest-pause (as I understand it).

    Max-Stim allows you to control fatigue, and offers increased Time Under Tension with significantly greater weight.
     
  4. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    <div>
    (Lol @ Sep. 07 2008,6:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">overfiftylifter, I'm no mod and I'm not Dan. However, looking at the Matrix method it would seem to me that it's just another approach to training where fatigue plays a primary roll and lifting with lighter loads is then &quot;apparently&quot; still effective. It will certainly feel very different to a Max-Stim set as this is much more concerned with strain on muscle tissue while keeping metabolic by-products as low as possible; this would seem to be almost the opposite of the Matrix method.

    Using the Matrix method there will likely be some beneficial effects from occlusion but at the end of the day, if strain isn't increasing over a cycle, RBE will catch up with you sooner than it would using Max-Stim. Don't forget that strain on muscle tissue is a key factor in causing a hypertrophic response; just because a load feels heavy due to the effects of fatigue does not make it actually heavy.</div>
    Strain is a injury to a muscle in which muscle fibers tear from overstretching with resulting pain, inflammation, swelling and stiffness. In bodybuilding, I think we do a controlled form of strain which produces micro-tearing and a lesser degree of the above symptoms. The symptoms of strain can be very much felt using 60% of one's 1RM. I think that any series of frequent movement stops/turnarounds in different directions(Matrix, 21's, Jreps, Stage reps, etc.) with sufficient weight produces more strain(perhaps more myofibrillar hypertrophy-assoc. with muscle hypertrophy) and neurological stimulus than a standard rep.

    The Matrix movements I mentioned earlier are done in 5 cycles done around 15 seconds apart using a weight that allows completion of the last cycle of the 5. The cycles and rest periods stay static and the weight would be increased when all the cycles are easily completed. The first three cycles will be not too challenging. The last two will be more stressful but will allow a large workload to be completed without as much fatigue. Yes, there is some occlusive activity but the blood flow during the resting periods feels more intense. It may mean more sarcoplasmic fluid/hypertrophy-one of the elements associated with muscle hypertrophy becomes involved.

    I may be altering Max-Stim to some degree, but I think it is a path to look at. Remember that my focus is hypertrophy, not strength.

    Overfiftylifter-just some ideas from someone still learning. What is RBE?
     
  5. RBE is repeated bout effect (or something like that) and is the body's adaptation to stimuli which in time renders a same weight useless to hypertrophy purposes. RBE is the reason that progressively increasing loads is the most important factor in a hypertrophy oriented training.
    I am not familiar with Matrix training, but from your description it seems like a way of increasing TUT in an exercise. It is a good way to train given that there is enough load to create a hypertrophic environment and the load increases over time but I fear that the complication cost of it does not overcome the benefit of simply doing additional regular reps to increase TUT.
     
  6. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    One of the problems of doing regular reps is the bodies ability to adapt and progress tends to stall. You can increase the weight used but I think this stimulus is limiting. The beauty of Matrix training is the different patterns that produce new challenges that prevent adaptation. There are over 30 patterns one can select from. Each different pattern feels different and yes, you do have to think about what your performing and not just go through the motions.

    Overfiftylifter-try curling a conventional rep set using 10-15 sec. rest-pause using one arm and try the Matrix cycle I mentioned earlier with the other using 15 sec. rest-pause.
     
  7. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Increasing the weight is a limiting stimulus? How so? In theory, you can increase the weight infinitely (though obviously not) while there are really only so many different ways to do a rep. No matter how much stronger you get, there will still only be so many different ways to do a rep. But as you get stronger, you can always continue increasing the load (at least until you hit your genetic peak, and by that point, what would you have to complain about??)
     
  8. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (overfiftylifter @ Sep. 08 2008,1:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Strain is a injury to a muscle in which muscle fibers tear from overstretching with resulting pain, inflammation, swelling and stiffness. In bodybuilding, I think we do a controlled form of strain which produces micro-tearing and a lesser degree of the above symptoms. The symptoms of strain can be very much felt using 60% of one's 1RM. I think that any series of frequent movement stops/turnarounds in different directions(Matrix, 21's, Jreps, Stage reps, etc.) with sufficient weight produces more strain(perhaps more myofibrillar hypertrophy-assoc. with muscle hypertrophy) and neurological stimulus than a standard rep.

    The Matrix movements I mentioned earlier are done in 5 cycles done around 15 seconds apart using a weight that allows completion of the last cycle of the 5. The cycles and rest periods stay static and the weight would be increased when all the cycles are easily completed. The first three cycles will be not too challenging. The last two will be more stressful but will allow a large workload to be completed without as much fatigue. Yes, there is some occlusive activity but the blood flow during the resting periods feels more intense. It may mean more sarcoplasmic fluid/hypertrophy-one of the elements associated with muscle hypertrophy becomes involved.</div>
    overfiftylifter, when I said 'strain' I was referring to mechanical strain on the tissue, not strain in the sense of injury. We know that mechanotransduction (where mechanical deformation of cells triggers chemical activity) in muscle cells elicits an important hypertrophic response.

    If you think about it, any point in a rep where there is a change in momentum of the loads being used will cause an increase in strain as a greater force is having to be produced during these turnaround period. However, like Totz pointed out, load is still king in producing the highest strain on the tissue as you can just keep on increasing it until it is no longer possible to perform even a single rep.

    Along with strain on the tissue, we have to ensure that the loading is applied for a long enough time - which is why just a single 1RM rep isn't going to generate as strong a hypertrophic stimulus as we might think, even though strain will be at its max. So, as TUT is also an important factor we are always going to be limited by our actual strength as to how much time we can handle any particular load.

    I don't know what the ideal TUT is for me or anyone else but it would seem that a total of 20 heavy reps performed 'as fast as possible' and with good form will usually do the job. With lighter loads (as at the start of an HST cycle) when rep speeds could be considerably higher, it may be necessary to do more reps or to slow the reps speeds down to get an equivalent TUT.

    Of course, this is also where RBE (see electric's post) plays an important part; at the start of a cycle when all your muscles are in a lowered state of conditioning, TUT will not need to be as high to elicit a PS response. But if you continued working with that same load, there would come a point when it wouldn't matter how much TUT the muscle tissue was subjected to - it would refuse to grow. In order to get a further growth response you would need to increase strain.
     
  9. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

  10. bodyguard

    bodyguard New Member

    Hello lifters,

    I am glad to find this topic on HST because I couldnt open the link Hypertrophy specific training site unfortunately. I understand Dan Moore has closed the website.
    I have been doing hypertrophy specific training for 2 years now and still happy with the way of training.

    Its good to see that the topics about HT has been discussed here.
    I hope you can understand my English.
     
  11. BenReffell

    BenReffell New Member

    bodyguard
    Your English is fine, in fact it's better than half the native English speakers!!!

    (PS. Don't forget there are other threads on this site that are about Max-Stim)
     
  12. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    <div>
    (bodyguard @ Oct. 01 2008,2:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have been doing hypertrophy specific training for 2 years now and still happy with the way of training.</div>
    You mean you have been doing HST or MaxStim for 2 years?
     
  13. bodyguard

    bodyguard New Member

    <div>
    (bobpit @ Oct. 01 2008,6:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (bodyguard @ Oct. 01 2008,2:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have been doing hypertrophy specific training for 2 years now and still happy with the way of training.</div>
    You mean you have been doing HST or MaxStim for 2 years?</div>
    I started on 2002 -  2006 with HST and since 2 years i have been doing MaxStim.
     
  14. bodyguard

    bodyguard New Member

    <div>
    (BenReffell @ Oct. 01 2008,3:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">bodyguard
    Your English is fine, in fact it's better than half the native English speakers!!!

    (PS. Don't forget there are other threads on this site that are about Max-Stim)</div>
    Hi BenReffell,

    Thanks for the compliments.
    Maybe an idea to add all the threads about MaxStim here to have all the information about MaxStim

    Just an idea
     
  15. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    I've been absent for a bit and am trying to get caught up and since I'm lazy I'm not going to read this whole thread but I want to make some quick points.

    1. It still hasn't been proven that damage or even micro trauma is a pre-requisite for growth, in fact what may occur with damaging workouts may not be the same response as what occurs with hyper-trophic stimuli.

    2. And I've mentioned this before, I would personally see someone do several reps ala Max-Stim first then if needed or compelled too continue to failure (some can't get this out of their mindset) doing so with dropsets to fatigue.

    For those who keep emailing me for the spreadsheet or PDF see post #1, #30 and #31
     
  16. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (overfiftylifter @ Aug. 18 2008,4:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was wondering if Mr. Moore could respond to my previous question? With your further experiences with Max-Stim, have you come up with more conclusions/ideas on its use?

    I'm experimenting with a 3-5 sec. rest between reps and using 25 reps(stopping when burning becomes strong). When 25 reps can be performed without burn, the weight is then increased. I'm doing 3-4 whole body workouts a week. I am using a little higher rep range due to senior orthopedic problems. Does this approach make sense Mr. Moore, based on your readings/experience?

    Thank you for your time,

    Overfiftylifter</div>
    That is one possible way of using it but it is not the intention.

    The burn is a metabolic response which can be &quot;trained&quot; therefore to use the burn as a guide is misleading because in fact everytime you acheive a burn your body will adapt to the &quot;burn&quot; which may not be the same as adapting to the load.

    In my opinion a better solution is to.........

    Set your number of reps, in this case 25, set your ceiling weight (highest weight you will be lifting that cycle. Systematically increase the load over a duration and use m-time to ensure you are acheiving your set number of reps.
     
  17. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    Dan, you have been missed [​IMG]
     
  18. bigbri

    bigbri New Member

    Good to see you back again Dan.  Yes you have been greatly missed. How is your training with Max-Stim going?  Any new developements?
    Hey Dan I have been training off and on max-stim but when I start hitting the heavier loads my 40 yr old a.c joints start to play up.  I have read some articles by Casey Butt about training Heavy/Light /Medium for the week focusing on incrementing the loads every Heavy day, therefore sparing the joints.  Do you think this would work effectively with Max-Stim?

    Thanks in advance
    Brian
     
  19. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    I'm in that 40 something crowd as well and I agree pushing those heavy loads around can wreck havoc on us old guys.

    You could try Butt's idea and see.

    I was emailing with an old friend lately and he mentions trying something that MikeyNov had mentioned once upon a time and that is adjusting the volume doubling the RM as the loads get heavier. IOW, 20 reps for 10's, 16 for 8's, 10 for 5's.

    Other options include dropping the number of exercises to a bare minimum during that phase and also reducing frequency.
     
  20. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Oct. 10 2008,8:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Other options include dropping the number of exercises to a bare minimum during that phase and also reducing frequency.</div>
    That's what I had to do as I was approaching the end of my Max-Stim Phase II. I wasn't able to keep up 4 workouts per week doing 20 reps with 100%+ of my 8RM. I let go a couple of my gingerbread isos, and cut back my workouts to twice a week.

    Phase III looks like it's gonna be a killer, but I've gained ten pounds and have grown a nice set of lats, so I am not complaining.
     

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