Max-Stim questions

Discussion in 'General Training' started by dkm1987, Jun 4, 2008.

  1. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (MasterCFI @ Dec. 04 2008,9:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yeah, that's what I did. I rested enough to be able to continue. I didn't keep track of the m-time. I just did it, knowing when my muscles were ready for action again!</div>
    Yup, that's an excellent way to judge your M-time. It's not a matter of the clock (though the second hand can be a help); it's a matter of your muscles being ready to go again. Caution: Dan does warn against M-times of over 30 seconds, but it takes a labcoat to understand why.
    <div>
    (MasterCFI @ Dec. 04 2008,9:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Any thoughts on doing the maxstim for 20 reps for the chins throughout, while keeping the rest of the workout pure HST? And then adding weight to my belt as I hit 20 reps or so...?</div>
    When I do Max-Stim, I keep the reps constant (usually at 20 or 25), and increase the weight each workout. Chins can be difficult if you can't do 20 bodyweight chins to start. My gym has a wussy-assist machine that let's me start at less than my bodyweight.

    You might want to start with 20 rep pull-downs, increasing the weight each workout until you're pulling down your bodyweight. Then you can switch to chins and add weight to your belt each workout.
     
  2. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    I have a home gym, complete with olympic bench, chinup bar on ceiling, and one of those Powertec multi-station machines - which is awesome. However, the pulldown portion is designed for pulldowns (wide), and doesn't lend to chin-up (close grip) replications.

    I was doing completing 2.5 sets of 10's on chinups my last cycle. I wasn't always able to complete a third set of 10. So, I'll probably go ahead and shoot for the 20 MS reps on chin-up bar while watching the m-time.

    I wish I'd have known about max-stim when I was competing in powerlifting!

    Have you used max-stim? What were your results?
     
  3. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (MasterCFI @ Dec. 04 2008,11:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I wish I'd have known about max-stim when I was competing in powerlifting!

    Have you used max-stim? What were your results?</div>
    I suspect Max-Stim may well have some PL applications.

    I used the M-time principle to complete Korte's 3x3 and then Ed Coan's deadlift program. That brought my weeny deadlift from 305 lbs to 320 lbs, and my squat to 235 lbs. when I weighed 130 lbs.

    Then I tried Phase I and Phase II of Dan's Max-Stim program. I gained over ten pounds and brought my squat up to 260 and my deadlift to 340.

    I realize these aren't particularly impressive lifts in terms of PL competition, but I'm 63 years old, not very tall and don't weigh very much, and have only been lifting for a bit over two years. So over all, I'm pleased with my results from the Max-Stim program.
     
  4. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    Well TunnelRat, I might have lifted &quot;some numbers&quot; back in the day, but I had lifting injuries from it and still have aches and pains!

    I'll be 50, so you are an inspiration! Hooah! And hey, your numbers aren't anything to sneeze at!

    I did the max-stim chin-ups tonight in my HST workout. I stopped at 15, just to see how I feel tomorrow. I felt fine doing them, BUT... I have tended to overtrain on both of my last 2 HST cycles.So, safer is better...
     
  5. jack32

    jack32 New Member

    Hey Over50,
    I'm the same Jack. LOL!
    Agreed about Dr. D's site. I still frequent the site for some good laughs.
    Interesting, your thoughts about Matrix. I've come full circle and have no interest in looking for a pump or performing continuous reps.
    My joints are good and my neck is healed. I have to admit that I'm enjoying the much faster rep speeds, as espoused by so many folks out there... Staley, Dan Moore, Waterbury, J. Casler.
    I do adhere to good bio-mechanics as preached by Staley and Max Stim allows me to &quot;reset&quot; between reps, and as a result my form is much better.
    Bill DeSimone (author of Moment Arm Exercise) came over to Main Line Health and Fitness 3 weeks ago and he &quot;tweaked&quot; some of the different pieces of equipment that I use, which also allows me to work in my optimum ROM, which is great.
    I now feel even more effort in my muscles, less pain in my joints and I'm using more weight to boot. No more overexaggerated ROM's.
    I love Dan's Max Stim approach and have no intention of changing it other than rotating exercises from time to time. It's just awesome, not feeling wiped out.
    Best Wishes,
    Jack
     
  6. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    Jack, I'm glad your in good health and the neck condition has resolved. Have many years of healthy lifting.

    Out of curiosity, what changes were made to the equipment at the gym that improved their function?

    Overfiftylifter
     
  7. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Nov. 21 2008,11:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BB Sholder Press -Works fine if intitial height of bar is set to high (just below Arm length)</div>
    Dan,

    I have a comfortable SQ rack that I use for BB presses.  I set the bar at my shoulder height, so that there is minimal effort to rack/unrack the weight.   Should I change this (and why)?

    With DL, I do total 10 reps with the recommended weight, then I do another 10 with about 20 kgr less.  Doing 20 reps with the recommended weight was too much for me.  Still, It took me 7 minutes to do total 10 reps with DL.  My M-time was like 35-38 seconds (instead of the recommended 4 seconds).  This is supposed to be my 10RM, but I will feel tired if I do it more intense.
     
  8. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    One more thing. When the weights are light (I am now at 100% of 10RM)&lt; I try to do clusters. Sets of 2-5 reps where I can. As long as I complete 20 reps, without failure to any of the sets, I guess I am ok.

    Another “technique” I use. I combine 2 different exercises, like BenchPress and PendlayRows. So I do a set of 4 reps for BP, rest 30 sec, do a set of 3 reps PendalyRows. This process (40 reps total) takes about 12 minutes.

    Any comments on this?
     
  9. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    overfiftylifter (or anyone with max-stim experience)

    I am 50'ish myself, and want to know more about max-stim on your body. I am into my third HST cycle, with good results. However, I re-injured myself the first cycle on squats, overtrained the second cycle, and am doing good on my third so far.

    However, the heavier loads are taking their toll in places (old powerlifting injuries and accidents!). So, do you find that the max-stim lends to NOT aggravating injuries as much?  I usually find that ONE rep of anything doesn't bother me. But, after 8 to 12 reps in a row - ouch!

    I am thinking of foregoing my 5's all together and going with max-stim at that point - total body twice a week. Somewhere I saw a suggestion to do 10 max-stims for the 5's loads, etc. I think my body will rebel at 5's loads for 2 to 4 weeks.    [​IMG]
     
  10. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    I have also reached the age where heavier weight use is a thing of the past. One option that may get one around this problem(moderators may not agree) is to make the repetition/s more difficult. I have used Matrix Principles movement patterns which use different combinations of full, partial and in some cases isometric holds with M-times. Clustering of reps is another possible option, but I feel more benefits using Matrix. An example of a &quot;rep&quot;:

    Basic Matrix rep-lift the weight 1/2 way up and return, then full movement to the top, then lower 1/2 way down from the top and return to the top, lower back to start position. This is one &quot;rep&quot;. This requires a lighter weight and is much easier on the joints and connective tissue.

    There are different Matrix patterns which can be used for each cycle which prevents workout boredom and may add to &quot;muscle confusion&quot;, perhaps more stimulus.

    Overfiftylifter-some senior ideas and hope that I can lift till my wife puts me away in the retirement home.
     
  11. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    Where can I find out about the matrix principles? Is there an article somewhere? Also, I am probably one of the few that has gained weight and size during the 15's block - only doing ONE set per bodypart.

    I start with a basic 2X4 rep speed, then slow it down considerably to make the burn, while tightening my muscles throughout the rep, with a static contraction on top. I'll speed up the reps if I have to finish the set. Doing it this way produces a &quot;workload&quot; that gives me great gains with minimum sets. I blew up the past two weeks on 15's (6 workouts)!

    However, when I reach my max for each group - I am usually &quot;overused&quot; by that point, and pain starts to set in. For a former state ranked powerlifter, I HATE heavy weights!!!

    Oh, doing the partials that you are talking about, (1/2 way up, etc.) sounds a lot like the 21's I'll do. That's 7 partial bottom reps, then 7 partial top reps, then 7 full motion reps.
     
  12. overfiftylifter

    overfiftylifter New Member

    The founder(Dr. Ron Laura) of the Matrix system is I believe the founder of the 21 system. He has expanded upon it with over 36 movement patterns. Making the reps more complex requires more concentration during the workout and the use of a more orthopedically friendly weight. Dr. Laura has published many books on weight training and other subjects and is located in Australia.

    You could as an example use the 21's idea but instead of 7 movements, do 2+ in the pattern with 2 1/2 way up, 2 1/2 way down and 2 full and then put in a M-time. From what you have posted, you do respond well to higher reps.

    Overfiftylifter-trying to remember if I took my Geritol this morning
     
  13. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (MasterCFI @ Dec. 04 2008,9:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tunnel

    Yeah, that's what I did. I rested enough to be able to continue. I didn't keep track of the m-time. I just did it, knowing when my muscles were ready for action again!

    Any thoughts on doing the maxstim for 20 reps for the chins throughout, while keeping the rest of the workout pure HST? And then adding weight to my belt as I hit 20 reps or so...?</div>
    Here's an interesting email I just recieved

    Hey Dan,

    I did something last night I thought you might find interesting, as it involves rest pause. After reading about the world records for chin ups and pull ups over various time frames, I was curious and decided to find out how many chin ups I could do in 30 minutes.

    My best continuous set at my current bodyweight (192) without additional weight was 14 reps. Last night, after performing 12 reps continuously, I was able to continue doing repetitions for 30 minutes by resting briefly between all the following reps. At first I rested for only about a 3 count, eventually increasing to a 10 count. I failed about 3 times over the half hour, and after each failed attempt rested an additional 10 seconds before continuing and was able to keep going after that. I ended up doing 162 repetitions in all - 150 rest pause reps following the first 12 continuous reps.

    I'm wondering how, despite failing on the 12th rep, my muscles were able to generate enough energy to be able to continue? Is the recovery time really that short?

    I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
    --
    Drew Baye
     
  14. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (bobpit @ Dec. 13 2008,12:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Should I change this (and why)?

    With DL, I do total 10 reps with the recommended weight, then I do another 10 with about 20 kgr less.  Doing 20 reps with the recommended weight was too much for me.  Still, It took me 7 minutes to do total 10 reps with DL.  My M-time was like 35-38 seconds (instead of the recommended 4 seconds).  This is supposed to be my 10RM, but I will feel tired if I do it more intense.</div>
    No, not if you are able to acheive the number of reps starting in the concentric portion. I just find it easier to start with the eccentric portion, briefly (fractions of a sec) pause then do the concentric.

    1. I don't recommend any timeframe other than trying to stay with no more than 30 secs (and that is not written in stone).

    2. I'm not sure what the issue is and why your are having a hard time with DLs as they are the most suited to this style of training.
     
  15. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (jack32 @ Dec. 11 2008,4:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey Over50,
    I'm the same Jack. LOL!
    Agreed about Dr. D's site. I still frequent the site for some good laughs.
    Interesting, your thoughts about Matrix. I've come full circle and have no interest in looking for a pump or performing continuous reps.
    My joints are good and my neck is healed. I have to admit that I'm enjoying the much faster rep speeds, as espoused by so many folks out there... Staley, Dan Moore, Waterbury, J. Casler.
    I do adhere to good bio-mechanics as preached by Staley and Max Stim allows me to &quot;reset&quot; between reps, and as a result my form is much better.
    Bill DeSimone (author of Moment Arm Exercise) came over to Main Line Health and Fitness 3 weeks ago and he &quot;tweaked&quot; some of the different pieces of equipment that I use, which also allows me to work in my optimum ROM, which is great.
    I now feel even more effort in my muscles, less pain in my joints and I'm using more weight to boot. No more overexaggerated ROM's.
    I love Dan's Max Stim approach and have no intention of changing it other than rotating exercises from time to time. It's just awesome, not feeling wiped out.
    Best Wishes,
    Jack</div>
    Jack,

    Been a Long time, good to hear you are healed and are using MS virtually exclusively.
     
  16. k_dean_curtis

    k_dean_curtis Member

    I have used max-stim with Bill de Simone's MaEx rep ranges almost exclusively since 2006. At 47 yrs old, a 9 year old child, lots of job stress (software mgr in a fortune 500 company [​IMG] ) I find that Max Stim is the only system that does not trash my CNS while allowing for adequate loading to induce hypertrophy. Combine this with Moment Arm ROM, that takes care of my joints.

    If you are over 40, IMHO you must do these things to stay in the game:
    • have a good endocrinologist to keep your hormones at a healthy level
    • use PERFECT form with MaEx ROM
    • use Max Stim to keep from frying your CNS
    • 2 week SD every 6 to 8 weeks
    • limit the volume to 30 exercises/sets a week
    • limit frequency to 3 times a week

    Many thanks to Dan M for refining HST even more.

    Some background if interested:
    Old LSU defensive back: so good fundamentals in weight training. Only 5'7'', so lean weight was about 160 lb all of adult life. HST added 5 lb muscle after 20 years of lifting. MS added another 5.
    To give it a fair shake I did try the IART Jrep thing for 3 months, bought all the books, read them, applied it to the letter. Did not make any gains, actually lost a bit; I know, no big surprise, was an intellectual curiosity, I came from a HIT background and know many of the IART folks personally, so hey why not. It really drove home the message that momentary muscular failure has no positive impact on hypertrophy, but in fact can prevent it. Had tried every combination of SS/HD/HIT and even a year of Hatfield/HVT in the previous 20 years, before discovering HST in 2005.
     
  17. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    OK, yesterday night I did 10 DL singles (instead of 5 doubles).  I finished in less than 4.5 minutes.  So the M-Time was less than 30 sec.  It was not that difficult.  

    Wondering though.  This is my 10RM.  I am supposed to do them in a straight set (on a good day).

    After that I reduced the weight by about 20% and did another 10 reps, much faster.
     
  18. I understand that MS' advantage is being able to do more reps or use more weight then you would if you had done the reps without M-time. Doing 10 reps MS style is &quot;less efficient&quot; then doing the same 10 reps with the same weight straight. Being able to do 20 reps MS-style with your 10RM, now that's when MaxStim makes sense. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
     
  19. bigbri

    bigbri New Member

    <div>
    (k_dean_curtis @ Dec. 18 2008,12:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have used max-stim with Bill de Simone's MaEx rep ranges almost exclusively since 2006. At 47 yrs old, a 9 year old child, lots of job stress (software mgr in a fortune 500 company [​IMG] ) I find that Max Stim is the only system that does not trash my CNS while allowing for adequate loading to induce hypertrophy. Combine this with Moment Arm ROM, that takes care of my joints.

    If you are over 40, IMHO you must do these things to stay in the game:
    • have a good endocrinologist to keep your hormones at a healthy level
    • use PERFECT form with MaEx ROM
    • use Max Stim to keep from frying your CNS
    • 2 week SD every 6 to 8 weeks
    • limit the volume to 30 exercises/sets a week
    • limit frequency to 3 times a week

    Many thanks to Dan M for refining HST even more.

    Some background if interested:
    Old LSU defensive back: so good fundamentals in weight training. Only 5'7'', so lean weight was about 160 lb all of adult life. HST added 5 lb muscle after 20 years of lifting. MS added another 5.
    To give it a fair shake I did try the IART Jrep thing for 3 months, bought all the books, read them, applied it to the letter. Did not make any gains, actually lost a bit; I know, no big surprise, was an intellectual curiosity, I came from a HIT background and know many of the IART folks personally, so hey why not. It really drove home the message that momentary muscular failure has no positive impact on hypertrophy, but in fact can prevent it. Had tried every combination of SS/HD/HIT and even a year of Hatfield/HVT in the previous 20 years, before discovering HST in 2005.</div>
    Hey k_dean_curtis, can you tell us a bit more about Bill Simone's MaEx rep ranges.  Sounds interesting.  Googled but couldn't find any info.

    Thanks
    Brian.
     
  20. bobpit

    bobpit New Member

    <div>
    (electric @ Dec. 18 2008,1:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I understand that MS' advantage is being able to do more reps or use more weight then you would if you had done the reps without M-time. Doing 10 reps MS style is &quot;less efficient&quot; then doing the same 10 reps with the same weight straight. Being able to do 20 reps MS-style with your 10RM, now that's when MaxStim makes sense. Please, correct me if I am wrong.</div>
    I described the problem I had with MS earlier in this discussion, I think around June 2008. I had a big problem with DL. Seems the volume was too much. So I thought to reduce the volume for DL only.
     

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