Max-Stim questions

Discussion in 'General Training' started by dkm1987, Jun 4, 2008.

  1. k_dean_curtis

    k_dean_curtis Member

  2. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (bobpit @ Dec. 21 2008,10:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (electric @ Dec. 18 2008,1:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I understand that MS' advantage is being able to do more reps or use more weight then you would if you had done the reps without M-time. Doing 10 reps MS style is &quot;less efficient&quot; then doing the same 10 reps with the same weight straight. Being able to do 20 reps MS-style with your 10RM, now that's when MaxStim makes sense. Please, correct me if I am wrong.</div>
    I described the problem I had with MS earlier in this discussion, I think around June 2008.  I had a big problem with DL.  Seems the volume was too much.  So I thought to reduce the volume for DL only.</div>
    I reckon deads have to be treated a little differently to most other exercises when performed MS style. The holistic nature of deads makes them an extremely taxing exercise when performed with a heavy load (ie. 90% 1RM and above).

    A 'proper' deadlift session is pretty much MS style anyway as you are performing each rep individually from a dead stop, with a bit of time to set-up between reps (even if it's very short). As such, trying to get 20 reps with your 5RM (or higher) for deads on a weekly basis is probably going to be too much for the average seasoned lifter - folks new to lifting might cope quite well for a while.

    But what about using a 10RM load? Surely, that would be fine for 20 MS reps? Well, I think that depends on how you found your 10RM. If you completed a set of 10 'touch-and-go' deads with a certain load that you then called your 10RM, expecting to get 20 MS reps with that same load might be a bit of a shock. Each MS rep is going to be more taxing than any of the touch-and-go reps, barring the initial one (because of stretch reflex, bounce off floor that you get with 'touch-and-go' reps). It would be better to find your 10RM by finding a load that allowed you to do 10 consecutive singles, with just time for a breath or two and a reset between reps.

    Perhaps a better way to approach MS deads would be to start with a load you know you can handle for 20 reps with an M-time of, initially, just a few seconds. Then, each deadlift session, increase the load by 5-10 pounds (or whatever increments make sense for your cycle) and go for your 20 reps - increasing M-time as necessary to keep fatigue at bay.

    Once you reach a load where an M-time of 30s is required early on in order to complete all 20 reps, you are probably pushing yourself pretty darn hard and in danger of frying your CNS. That may well prove to be heavy enough for your cycle but, if not, then in order to continue to increase the load, I think it would be prudent to lower the total MS reps required from 20 to, say, 15 and then from 15 to, say, 10. You could always add some lighter reps if you wanted to increase the total work done.

    Don't forget that, for conventional deadlift reps, it is usually not necessary to do more than one or perhaps two heavy work sets of 5. Ripp suggests just one heavy work set of 5, after a succession of warm-up sets, in order for a decent amount of overload to occur. In my case, once I am close to my 5RM load, I'll aim for a total of around 10-15 reps (I will only do a single set of 5 but I may well follow that with clusters of triples, doubles or singles). I have yet to try 20 MS reps with my 5RM for deads so I don't know how much less taxing that will turn out to be. I'll have to give it a shot sometime soon.
     
  3. kidkurious

    kidkurious New Member

    I have a question:

    How would I approach zig-zagging? - the same way as in HST?

    Also, how should I warm-up for max-stim?
    During my HST cycles, I would warm-up by doing 50%, 70% thne 80% of my working sets. Should I do the same for max-stim?

    The exercises I plan do to for the Max-Stim cycle are the same used by TunnelRat:

    A:
    Squat
    Bench
    Row

    B:
    Deads
    Chin
    Dip
     
  4. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    I have the same question as kidkurious - regarding warmups. Especially when you get into very heavy lifts.

    Also, my max-stim cycle will look like this:

    MON - Deads (alternated with squats)
             Pendlay Rows
             Chins (alternated with barbell curls)

    TUE - Bench
            Shoulder press
            Bench dips for triceps

    WED - off

    THU - Squats
             Pendlay Rows
             Chins (alternated with barbell curls)

    FRI - Bench
            Shoulder press
            Bench dips for triceps

    SAT - off
    SUN - off


    Calves and hamstrings will be thrown in depending on how I feel. This is my third HST cycle and I just finished my second week of fives. I am now moving into my extended fives, and will continue heavy as long as the body will take it.

    My HST plan was for 225 deadlifts this cycle for 5's. (Haven't lifted weights since 1987). Yet, I did 315 deadlifts for 5's yesterday, and have 6 more workouts to go. I believe this is due to having a schedule that has me working out every third day, continuously.
     
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    A standard approach to warmup sets makes sense to me, whether for M-S reps or regular work sets. eg. For squats and deads, I do a light set of ten, a set of 5 reps at 50% working load, 3 reps at 75/80%, 1 or 2 reps at 90% and then get to my working load.

    Personally, I wouldn't include zig-zag in a Max-Stim cycle as fatigue management is already an important aspect of M-S. Zig-zag can help reduce accumulated fatigue following RM workouts in a regular HST cycle, but you won't be intentionally working to failure with Max-Stim; with M-S, you will be gradually increasing M-time as the loads get heavier to help reduce accumulated fatigue. However, if during the course of your M-S cycle you find that you are starting to fatigue more than expected, you could repeat a previous weeks loads and/or increase M-time and see if that helps.
     
  6. kidkurious

    kidkurious New Member

    <div>
    (Lol @ Jan. 21 2009,10:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A standard approach to warmup sets makes sense to me, whether for M-S reps or regular work sets. eg. For squats and deads, I do a light set of ten, a set of 5 reps at 50% working load, 3 reps at 75/80%, 1 or 2 reps at 90% and then get to my working load.

    Personally, I wouldn't include zig-zag in a Max-Stim cycle as fatigue management is already an important aspect of M-S. Zig-zag can help reduce accumulated fatigue following RM workouts in a regular HST cycle, but you won't be intentionally working to failure with Max-Stim; with M-S, you will be gradually increasing M-time as the loads get heavier to help reduce accumulated fatigue. However, if during the course of your M-S cycle you find that you are starting to fatigue more than expected, you could repeat a previous weeks loads and/or increase M-time and see if that helps.</div>
    Thanks Lol [​IMG]

    so for the 12 seeks of MS, I follow a linear progression, increasing the weight each workout... and repeating weights when stalling, and if stalling still occurs, I deload?

    Regarding the 3 phases, I don't have to aim for the RMs?
    From my new understanding, I just start off by working with my 10RM, and I'll eventually be working with my 8RM, then finally 6RM. Each phase isn't necessarily 4 weeks...?

    Or do I ignore the whole 3 phase thing and simply follow linear progression?

    thanks again [​IMG]
     
  7. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Well, I guess if you do things as Dan originally laid out then you will have zig-zag between phases (assuming, for example, that 75% of your 8RM is lighter than 110% of your 10RM, which it is pretty much bound to be). This allows you to have a 12 week cycle with a weight increment twice a week, over four weekly full-body w/os (using an A &amp; B setup).

    What I'd rather do is use a 3 x weekly full-body w/o plan. If I used an alternating A/B setup, I'd use linear increments every other session and just keep that going for as many weeks as possible. If I used an A/B/C setup, I'd only increment once a week.

    In the first instance (A/B case), I'd probably manage about 8 weeks before I hit my 110% of 6RM workout. At this point things are going to be heavy so I might drop the loads back a bit and build up again or, if my joints felt fine, I might just keep with the heavy loads for as long as possible before a proper deload (or SD).

    In the second instance (A/B/C case), I'd probably manage 12 weeks before hitting my 110% of 6RM workout. Then, just as in the A/B case, I'd see how I felt and either press on with the heavy loads for a while longer or do a deload (or SD).

    As I usually try to break into new PR territory at the end of each cycle, a slight deload can really help with a bit of extra recovery before pushing for some bigger numbers.

    If you find a more linear approach to increments wipes you out then add some zig-zag back in.
     
  8. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    I have a question about the Max-Stim spreadsheet. I downloaded the one that shows an eight week cycle, hitting each bodypart twice a week, in an &quot;upper/lower&quot; split routine.

    Where is the one that walks you thru a 12 week cycle hitting 10RM, 8RM, and 6RM loads?
     
  9. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    If you are even barely familar with excel you can modify the one you DL'd to extend it to 12 weeks.

    If you are Excel challenged let me know and I'll make one for you.

    To put my hat in the ring concerning the zig zag or rather to have zig zag or not to have zig zag that is the question.

    Doesn't matter, there is nothing showing in the science that a single bout with a repeated load completely stops the anabolic signalling effect from loading. So in essence one could repeat the same exercise and load for a few times before moving the load upwards. This then can eliminate any zig zag at all (if desired) or minimize the amount and frequency of zig zag.

    Using what I just said and addressing Master CFI's question you can effectively repeat loading schemes to
    1. Eliminate/Reduce Zig zag
    2. Extend your cylces to fit your needs.

    I left MS very pliable for a reason as I can't stand the dogmatism that accompanies workout routines therefore MS is only a tool, an idea, an approach to lifting heavier weights without sacrificing volume. Use it to extend your heavier RM in HST, use it exclusively, use iit as an adjunct to high rep days, or as a means to break plateus. Whatever works for you. [​IMG]
     
  10. bigbri

    bigbri New Member

    What approach do you find works best for you Dan?
     
  11. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Jan. 22 2009,11:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I left MS very pliable for a reason as I can't stand the dogmatism that accompanies workout routines therefore MS is only a tool, an idea, an approach to lifting heavier weights without sacrificing volume.</div>
    I've tried following the vanilla Max-Stim program for much of the past year. I used Simplify and Win style exercises, instead of the ones listed for the program.

    The main thing I leave pliable is my M-time. Although I usually manage to keep it well below 30 seconds (even for end of phase deadlifts!), yet I feel very free to increase or decrease M-time, as needed, during any given exercise.

    Time and events have kept me from ever completing the entire three phase program. However, I have managed to finish Phase II at least once. [​IMG]

    My results so far have been increased weight, decreased bodyfat, and new PRs in bench, squats, and deads.
     
  12. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Jan. 22 2009,5:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">use it exclusively</div>
    Dan
    I have a question about using exclusively MST for my training

    I remember on your site you gave us your cycle in 'optimal/ideal world'

    I have tried it but if feels so light in 10 and 8 phases even with almost no M-time (very short)

    since the construction of MST cycle seems to bother many people
    do you have any 'other' suggestions how to build a cycle for more advanced ?
     
  13. abanger

    abanger Member

    Circ-Max-Stim
    &quot;cheat m-time, enhance strain, increase the cardiovascular response to max-stimulation and have fun&quot;
     
  14. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (ZMT @ Jan. 23 2009,7:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Dan Moore @ Jan. 22 2009,5:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">use it exclusively</div>
    Dan
    I have a question about using exclusively MST for my training

    I remember on your site you gave us your cycle in 'optimal/ideal world'

    I have tried it but if feels so light in 10 and 8 phases even with almost no M-time (very short)

    since the construction of MST cycle seems to bother many people
    do you have any 'other' suggestions how to build a cycle for more advanced ?</div>
    ZMT, writing the original ideas down for MS just about 3 years ago now some ideas of mine have changed. In light of more recent scientific observations and also understanding the needs of lifters have lead me to a few newer conclusions. But before I list those let me point out that the foundation of MS is rooted in progressive loading, fatigue management, and how mechanical strain is sensed and then translated. These foundations have not changed and my view hasn't changed either.

    A couple newer studies that have come also has not dissuaded my views and in fact have reinforced them. One that I feel is worth mentioning is that as one becomes more trained any advantage that high rep low rest sets offers is diminshed over time.

    With that said IMOO a simplistic as possible approach is probably the best.

    Limit or rather concentrate on the big lifts, unless of course trying to develope a weakness.

    A couple pressing and pulling movements for the upper body and a good leg exercise is probably all that is needed when simply trying to add some poundage on the bar. Over doing it only makes it tougher.

    Doing this 2X week is probably just as well as 3. And 2X week may be even better when you are pushing some serious loads around.

    Use whatever loads you are comfortable with using, if the 10 and 8's are too light then only stay with those loads a brief amount of time and use a quicker progression. To keep the cycle length about the same hang out with your max RM and above a little longer. So instead of just 2 or 3 workouts with 100-110% of your 6RM do a full 2-3 weeks (4-9 Workouts) with this load. It's during this time that you should concentrate on using more concentric speed or reduce the M-time between reps.
     
  15. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    Dan

    Do you plan to update your e-book and re-post with your current guidance?

    Thanks for all you do...
     
  16. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    Do folks really NOT work out arms, yet make arm size gains? I am having a hard time wrapping my brain aorund that one? Does anyone have samples of their results, both doing and NOT doing arms. I'd like to hear from HST'ers and max-stim'ers...
     
  17. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Jan. 26 2009,12:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Limit or rather concentrate on the big lifts, unless of course trying to develope a weakness.
    ...

    Doing this 2X week is probably just as well as 3. And 2X week may be even better when you are pushing some serious loads around.</div>
    I've focused on deads, squat, chin, dip, bench, and row (I frankly couldn't understand how to do some of the exercises recommended in the original progam... [​IMG] ). Max-Stim has worked well for me using mainly those big ones.

    I found that the A/B workout 4x week was too much for me. I can do 3x week up through about 95%. After that, twice a week is plenty. It is encouraging to have it confirmed once again that 2x week may work as well as 3x week.
     
  18. ZMT

    ZMT New Member

    Thanks Dan for some new light on MST

    frankly speaking it looks that science overlaps with my own experience in all aspects, I am also on the same boat as TunnelRat (also using A/B 3x a week workout with big movements)

    I am no longer using any intermedial RMs besides last one from heaviest workout
    from then I am trying (after some days rest) start new cycle with 90% of last heaviest RM and wave from that to RM and beyond with some days of lighter weights inside -hence name 'wave' (hope I am understandable [​IMG] - english is not mine first language)

    also looking forward to see MST 2.0
    Thanks again Dan for all great work !
     
  19. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Jan. 26 2009,5:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So instead of just 2 or 3 workouts with 100-110% of your 6RM do a full 2-3 weeks (4-9 Workouts) with this load.</div>
    That has always been my inclination.

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ Jan. 26 2009,5:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's during this time that you should concentrate on using more concentric speed or reduce the M-time between reps.</div>
    Excellent! Max Stim meets Crossfit! [​IMG]

    @MasterCFI: For optimal arm development it is very likely that you will need to do specific arm work, but there is no doubt in my mind that arm size does correlate with overall upper body increases from progressive heavy back, chest and delt work. It would be strange to think otherwise as the arms are so heavily involved in almost all the main upper body compounds.
     
  20. MasterCFI

    MasterCFI New Member

    LOL

    My thoughts exactly. It almost seems to me though, that since arms are getting secondary, indirect work, all the time, that they would need to be worked even harder to stimulate growth. But, ample rest needs to also be considered.

    Heck, we walk on our calves all day, then work them hard to get them to grow.

    I'm new to the &quot;bodybuilding&quot; arena (this past summer, actually). I was always a powerlifter or &quot;extreme athlete&quot;, in that I would hump 12 miles with a 100 pound rucksack on my back. After having done a physical fitness test, then doing cross country land navigation through the woods, etc. Being a former infantry officer assigned to the Green Beret, I am used to pounding my body.

    When you look at the legs of Rangers and Special Forces, they tend to be beefy and built. They got that way walking and running moderate distances with heavy loads. My legs are the same way.
     

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