Simplify and Win!

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(mikeynov @ Aug. 16 2008,12:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Nor should any of this be perceived as 'complicating' anything.  Mostly because it's not terribly complicated to add some isolation work, as necessary, to the compound lifts people should already be doing.</div>
A 'Complicate &amp; Win' thread was meant to be at least a little tongue in cheek.
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Okay, so 'complicate' was not the best choice of words to use but it would get some attention. Instead, let's add some good advice here on which exercises might be suitable to add to a selection of foundation exercises. I am sure we all have some experience in which isos (or lesser used compounds) have worked best for us.

Here are some of my favourite isos (all using free-weights, as I don't have any machines) a few of which I might perform for a set or two at the end of a workout, if I have the time:

Standing tri-extensions with an EZ-bar: brilliant for stretch; the higher you hold your elbows the more stretch you get and you can adjust your elbow angle as you fatigue so you don't get stuck with a weight behind your head that you can't put back down.

DB Pullovers: performed across a bench with a heavy db. I treat these as more of a tri exercise where my lats help them out. Masses of tri stretch again.

Bi-curls with EZ-bar: I start out strict but introduce a little bit of swing for the concentric and then focus on the eccentric as the set goes on.

Seated db curls: Emphasising the stretch on the eccentrics by holding the dbs out to the sides, then bringing them round to the standard position for the concentrics.

Power shrugs: These are awesome for traps. It's possible to use more weight than you would for a heavy deadlift and still get more reps.

Barbell Standing Calf Raises: I love these for the crazy pump they give my calves (which are quite strong but pitifully lacking in muscle tissue). I don't have a calf-machine so I figured out a way to do these in my squat rack with a heavy barbell on my back while standing on a home-made timber platform that allows my heels to comfortably drop down. Heavy enough weight so I can only get 10 good reps for the first set. Perform 3 sets.

Single-leg calf raise: standing on the bottom stair and holding a db in one hand and the newel post with the other for balance. Really emphasise the stretch at the bottom of the movement.
 
I completely agree with the above and lets just say that we need not be strict about any regime, but rather to &quot;eat the meat and spit out the bones&quot; and take from it what is good to one's growth regime.

Iso's per se are not bad just...they do not need as much attention as compounds do!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, as you become an intermediate lifter, you WILL do isolation exercises at some point if you want to reach your genetic potential to be as muscular as possible.</div>
 
Bearing that in mind Fausto, i think for my next cycle i will do normal volume with compounds (ie increasing sets as reps decrease - load increases) but will stick to 1 set for isos for all load increases untill i get to the heavy lifting ( maybe 10RM and under) what you think???

Instead of doing vanilla HST im going to go for a simple routine using the same exercises each and every workout and increasing the load each week....should look something like this....

Frequency 3x week (mon, wed, fri)

1 Squat
2 Leg curl
3 Calf raise (not sure whether to include as i dont think squats stimulate them enough to grow..)
4 Bench
5 Cable Row (narrow grip)
6 Lat Pull (wide grip)
7 Standing BB press
8 BB or DB shrug
9 Seated incline DB curls (emphasize the ecc away from body)
10 Standing or lying DB extension
11 Crunch or Hanging knee raise (depending on load)

I consider the isos are calf raise, shrugs, bi.s and tri,s so i am thinking of including one set of these exercises...

What are everyones thought on this cycle??
 
I think the biggest point in this thread, and what makes it so good in my opinion is that it is a guide for many newbies and some intermediate lifters, not as a holy grail but as a reference. Many or most of the beginners that come to this forum have extremely complicated routines with isolation exercises for every single muscle and usually several isos for the same muscle with different grips. This thread is specially important for them because there is much more to be gained, specially for them, by doing major compound exercises. You work on many more muscles including stabilization muscles that usually are not worked on isolation exercises and develop much more functional strength. You also simplify stuff so that you can better focus on lifting heavy and ensuring progressive load instead of juggling with routines that require a PhD to follow.
Again, this is not to say that nobody will never need anything different from this but if a person is unsure of what he should be doing, then a simplify and win routine is probably the best bet.
 
ratty

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bearing that in mind Fausto, i think for my next cycle i will do normal volume with compounds (ie increasing sets as reps decrease - load increases) but will stick to 1 set for isos for all load increases untill i get to the heavy lifting ( maybe 10RM and under) what you think???</div>

Sounds like a plan, to me isos are more of a means to an end, and I use them for lagging parts and as a complement to some lifts.
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 I don't just use them &quot;willy nilly&quot;.

Allow me to comment on your routine:

1 Squat
(standard this is cool, 2x week)
2 Leg curl
(Ok, I don't do them that much, you could opt for SLDL getting more of a back stimulation, but alright your pick)
3 Calf raise (not sure whether to include as i dont think squats stimulate them enough to grow..)
(Some people require more of this than others)
4 Bench
(Standard - do 3x week)
5 Cable Row (narrow grip)
6 Lat Pull (wide grip)
(the above two, I prefer to use a lat pull wide grip with a chin up reverse grip [loaded])
7 Standing BB press  
(standard)
8 BB or DB shrug
(now, this you would get a good stimulation on your traps if you did deads at least 1x week and I don't see them at all, reason?)
9 Seated incline DB curls (emphasize the ecc away from body)
(Good stretch use daily)
10 Standing or lying DB extension
(also good - daily)
11 Crunch or Hanging knee raise (depending on load)
(personal choice here)

That is it, these of course are my opinions!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think the biggest point in this thread, and what makes it so good in my opinion is that it is a guide for many newbies and some intermediate lifters, not as a holy grail but as a reference.</div>

Thank you Electric for emphasizing that, although I am only highlighting this part, the whole sentence is very well put.

In fact that is the reason I started the thread in the first place
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, most of the advanced lifters have learn't (some the hard way) that iso's are a win-loose situation but they can help a lot if used smartly!

I once read a fair guideline saying, &quot;don't bother with isos&quot;, until:

- You can bench at least 1 1/2 x your body weight
- Squat close to 1 1/2 - 2 x your BW
- Deadlift at least twice your BW
- Dip with the same amount as your BW attached, same for chin ups.
- Press your BW.

If you can reach all of these marks then it is profitable to use isos so as to shape the mass you gained!
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Fausto,

Thanks for your input!

I havent included deads as i havent done them in about a year! and plus i thought they were a quad exercise which i have the squat for...Would you just not bother with the shrugs and include deads alternating with squats??

Also i dont understand why you tell me to do my arm isos daily?? whats all that about lol...

Also just thought i would mention i can only squat and bench and chin just over my bodyweight..not the figures you have give at the bottom of your last post..

Does this have any relevence to whether you think i should definately include isos??
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I havent included deads as i havent done them in about a year!</div>

So?...start again!
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> and plus i thought they were a quad exercise which i have the squat for</div>

Not really, they are almost a full body exercise, they hit the back fairly well and the quads but also the arms, shoulder and traps, take a look: Barbell Deadlift

In my opinion when you do them heavy (say 2x BW) then the traps don;t need any further stimulation!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...Would you just not bother with the shrugs and include deads alternating with squats??</div>

Yep, squats 2x/week and deads 1x/week, that is the main recipe here at HST!
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Ok thanks for your advice Fausto..much appreciated....

Instead of asking all these questions as to if i should include isos the best way i am going to find out is by experience!

Next cycle i am going to do just compounds and measure my muscle sizes to see what growth occurs!? ive never done this before but as long as i dont acculate too much fat it should be a true reflection on my gains and give me accurate feedback....

But...i would like a little guidence from experience as to the amount and what type of compounds to use...

I am thinking i could alternate

Squat             Deads
Rows              Lat pulls
Dips                Incline bench
Militry press    Upright rows.........


Or i could just stick to the same exercises each workout..

Squat
bench
row
lat pull
mil press...

What you think fausto??? I am looking for all over body growth.....im thinking it would be alot easier doing the same exersises every workout, as what weight i m supposed to be lifting would be easier to follow...
 
Ratty, I like your first option (alternating), it is what I've been doing lately with good results. I would use flat bench instead of incline since you are already doing military press for the shoulder.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am thinking i could alternate

Squat Deads
Rows Lat pulls
Dips Incline bench
Militry press Upright rows.........</div>

Yep, this is your best bet, it allows for more variation although option 2 will also work it is more restricted.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Next cycle i am going to do just compounds and measure my muscle sizes to see what growth occurs!? ive never done this before but as long as i dont acculate too much fat it should be a true reflection on my gains and give me accurate feedback....</div>

Don't be too quick to measure things up with high expectations, measure every two weeks or so to allow enough growth, which will occur if you are eating correctly and faster if you are new to the game, veterans or long time weight trainers will have slower improvements.

To avoid too much fat gain, eat clean, do HIIT in between the weight training, even with weights if you can, and stay on about 500 calories over BMR, that is my recommendation.

Happy lifting!
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I love this thread...!

It seems that most of us would agree...

As bench press is to delts and triceps

Squats/Deads are to calves and hamstrings?

I'm really inexperienced with the latter two movements, so I have to ask...

and of course, BUMP
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I love this thread...!</div>

Well, thank you!  
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Never thought a thread I started would become so popular!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As bench press is to delts and triceps, Squats/Deads are to calves and hamstrings?</div>

Best way to answer this question is to refer you to Barbel Full Squat

check out dynamic stabilizers and synergists, not only but also a few others.
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Squats (especially Rippetoe) and deadlifts work pretty much everything. Its part of the reason why they are so highly recommended.
 
very cool...

thanks for the link Fausto

check on that bgates

planning out this new routine is more fun than working out for me right now

can't wait to focus on growing again soon!
 
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(Peak_Power @ Feb. 27 2007,7:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My New Simpify and Win Routine (now simpler and with more win):

ATG Squats
Chest Dips
Pull Ups (wide pronated grip)
Bent Over Row
Shoulder Press (any variation: military, BTN, seated)
Abs

No alternations, just a simple routine full of heavy compounds to hit every major muscle group.</div>
i like this one for my next hst workout

do you guys think it would be good to add in a couple sets of bis and tris at the end? i'm thinking something like dumbell preacher curls and seated overhead triceps extensions. but this is the way i'll put the excersises in order.

Incline bench/Dips (rotate)
Bent Rows/ Pulls up (rotate)
Dumbell Should Press
Dumbell Preacher Curls
Seated Tricep extensions
Squat/deadlift (rotate)
Abs

hows that look?
 
p0fellow

Looks good to me (solid routine IMO).

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">do you guys think it would be good to add in a couple sets of bis and tris at the end?</div>

I for one do as I said before but more when I feel like it, can't see them hurting a good routine though.

I think the emphasis on not doing them is really for the Curl Crazy lot, and...believe me...you find them...even amongst some I'd consider veterans (not HST vets of course).
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(Fausto @ Oct. 09 2008,7:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">p0fellow

Looks good to me (solid routine IMO).

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">do you guys think it would be good to add in a couple sets of bis and tris at the end?</div>

I for one do as I said before but more when I feel like it, can't see them hurting a good routine though.

I think the emphasis on not doing them is really for the Curl Crazy lot, and...believe me...you find them...even amongst some I'd consider veterans (not HST vets of course).
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thanks. 1 more question on my Max days do i do all my max for workout a and b or just the workouts that i'm rotating that day?
 
I doubt you could lift your maxes for both A and B workouts on the same day. It's your decision of course, but I would suggest having two max days every time, one for workout A and one for workout B.
 
As I've read through this thread many of your collective contributions have really impressed me. No sense in letting this get lost in the pile.

Pinned.
 
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(9to5lifter @ Oct. 17 2008,6:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I doubt you could lift your maxes for both A and B workouts on the same day. It's your decision of course, but I would suggest having two max days every time, one for workout A and one for workout B.</div>
how would i go about having 2 max days on a m/w/f a and b split?
 
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