Simplify and Win!

Hey

I'm a lightweight rower new to HST trying to gain a few pounds of muscle and strength with it before the competitive season.

I've posted my log where I planned a routine for my first time HST cycle with A/B split both having 10 almost different exercises. Now during "SD" waitng the cycle to launch I have read these forums, internet and some books about trying to learn more from Strength training (allthough I have lifted years I have never really known about the "theory") which have altered my view about exercise selection. I still think my original plan is okay, and I'm trying it... but later, during next off season. Now, after talking with my coach about all this, we agreed that at this point of season I should focus to the compounds and lifts which are closely related to rowing.

So I am planning to go with the following routine (3x week):
Squat
Bench
Bent over Row
Ab crunch
***** These four exercises are done each session and progress normally, i.e 75-80-85-90-95-100% of RM

Deadlift/Power Clean
Pullups/Standing DB Press
Skullcrushers/EZ Curl
*******These I will do each other session alternating, progressing them 80-90-100% of RM's

Now I wanted to check with you guys what do you think of the routine. Do I have the whole body covered well enough?

P.S. No dips because I fear my shoulder... however I will try to accustom myself to them so that I can some later cycle include them
 
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Getting back into working out. 6 weeks of HST so far and have gained a solid 10 lbs w/ weight gainer, protein powder, and a lot more eating.

Funny how I remember simplify and win from a few years ago. Anyway, here's my routine. Just wanted to share it to see if I was missing anything:

I do all of this with dumbbells at my house (that has 2.5 lb increments):

2 x Squat (A days)
1 x Deadlift (B days)
2 x Rows (bent over)
2 x Bench (flat)
1 x Shoulder Press (seated)
Abs - situps (not sure if this even does anything)
Abs - stomach crunches w/ legs up in air
 
i'm new to hst and have read this thread several times over. yes it is amazing. but in a way i feel some of you have gotten a little carried away with this "ultra-simplification" of the hallowed hst routine. first of all, yes i agree, compounds are king. iso's have there place but should be used sparingly if at all. however i somewhat feel that a simplified hst routine following an A/B schedule somewhat compromises a central aspect hst, a facet which makes it so effective. that is frequent stimulation. correct me if i'm wrong, but what this thread is advocating is less exercises per session and more sets and reps per exercise. for example a simply and win A/B routine might look like this...
A/B
Squats/Deads
Inc Bench/Dips
Rows/Chins
Bbell mil press/dbell sh press

....however in order to make this simplified routine more effective, more sets and reps would have to be added as opposed to the famed 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 set/rep scheme.

sets and reps in a simplified and win routine might have to be something like 2x15, 3x10, 6x5....sorry but 6x5 sounds like a beast and is just asking for overtraining. instead of a simplified and win routine in which each exercise is utilized only one every 4/5 days why not simply combine the compounds into one full body routine and lower the reps and sets. this leads to more frequent stimulation/less volume. make sense? the whole point of hst is full body routines so you can hit the muscle every 48 hours. with an A/B routine each angle of the muscle is hit every 4/5th day. anyway this is what i'm talking about following a 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 template.

A/B
Squats/Deads alternating
Bench/Dips alt
Pull-ups
Rows
Dbell sh press

p.s. why is everyone so obsessed with chins on this thread? if people are looking for lat devepment are pull-ups (pronated grip) not better? yes you can use more weight with chins but i feel it definitely targets less of the lats than pull-ups. just my $.02

i guess what i want to know is...who has used a "SIMPLIFY AND WIN" routine with an A/B schedule and seen amazing results as opposed to the traditional hst routine?
 
Good points waray. I have been wondering the same things as you... I'm in no ways an expert, but I try to present what I have read about these things.

I do not think that more sets/reps are a neccessity in that sample 4 exercise simplify and win routine... I guess it all depends to how much volume you have been used to (and SD also helps to lower the needed volume).

Also in the "sample" simplify and win routine you do hit the muscle every 48 hours. The thing is you do not neccessarily have to hit it with the same exercise/from the same angle, at least that's what I've been told.

The thing from chin-loving, well it might be that it's just easier to write chins than pullups :) or maybe because they hit the arms a little more...

That being said, your own version of the simple routine looks very good and is almost the same as mine is currently. The difference is I do squats and bench each workout (no dips), alternate between power clean and deads, shoulder press standing with barbell and yes I do chins ;). With 1x15-2x10-3x5 plus that setup I am pretty much doing ~30 reps per workout for each bodypart. I am on my 1st HST cycle, and my training circumstances are not near optimal, as I train competitive rowing in lightweights, but at least last time I looked from the mirror I noticed good changes and my strength has also come up.

P.S. I think one of the main points in this simplify and win thread is also to make people realize it is not a good idea to use 10+ different exercises in every workout, but that you can achiev the same with less.
 
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pekkias
i like your reply. i too am in no way an expert but i do try to research and read a lot up on these things as much as i can. i actually have yet to start my hst routine. i've found my RM's and am now about 5 days into SDing. your routine sounds very good. have you seen some pretty good results so far? are you using the 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 setup? and is there an actual solidified sample routine for the "Simplify and Win" that you keep referring too? i've seen several different routines posted on this thread but was wondering if there was an actual "sample" routine established. that would be sweet if there is
 
waray214,

You are right there is no sample routine for the Simplify and Win, the one I was referring to in my previous post was the 4 exercise A/B split in your post, as I think that was the same as Fausto's (on p.4) who started this thread.

For my own setup, as I said my circumstances are not optimal, as I train for competitive rowing and currently I've been almost 3 weeks on camp where we row about 20 hours each week... And I've got a weight limit, so I can't really "bulk".

However I think I have gained good results with my setup (yes it is 1x15, 2x10, 3x5), at least for me. For strength I really can't compare the development, as I have altered my form from previous after reading Rippetoe's Starting Strength, or not done these exercises for a while before the HST cycle (Plus I had to estimate 10 and 5RMs due time issues). Except the bench. I could do 8 clean reps with 65kg, a weight I in February could only lift 5 times (with some chest bump). I also do feel I have gotten stronger overall.

For size I have not done measurements after starting (I will do them in the end), but looking from the mirror I see improvements. Plus I have gained about 1kg (and I'm sure that's mostly muscle!). That is very good for me.

For some reference, the time it takes me to finish my routine is usually between 1-1,5h, but in the end of fives it may take even longer. The first 4 lifts usually take the longest, from 45min to 1 hour, but I warm up pretty heavy on them and have longer breaks as I consider them the "main lifts". The rest are done faster.

For another "simple" routine and good results you can view a first time HST log of zeebodybuilder here

Also a tip for you and everyone else planning their routine that I keep seeing all over here and have myself found useful, is not to neglect the abs, but find a good exercise or two for them that you can do the same style as the rest of the lifts, i.e. 15-10-5 reps.
 
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waray214 said:
p.s. why is everyone so obsessed with chins on this thread? if people are looking for lat devepment are pull-ups (pronated grip) not better? yes you can use more weight with chins but i feel it definitely targets less of the lats than pull-ups. just my $.02
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Research has shown that pull-ups and chin-ups are very actually very similar in terms of lat development, the weighted chin-up edges out the weighted pull-up in mean lat activity, and the weighted pull up-edges out the weighted chin-up in peak lat activity. However, the chin-up hits around the same amount of lat with a little more bicep, rhomboid, mid and lower trap, etc , due to the greater ROM and resistance so is generally a better choice out of the two.
 
I read somewhere, i think it was a post written by style, about doing 2 sets (1 of 10 an 1 of 5 reps) for 10s.I am wondering how is he doing the 5 rep in 10s.By increasing the weigh or by cutting the pause betweent this sets...
 
Dolphinski said:
Research has shown that pull-ups and chin-ups are very actually very similar in terms of lat development, the weighted chin-up edges out the weighted pull-up in mean lat activity, and the weighted pull up-edges out the weighted chin-up in peak lat activity. However, the chin-up hits around the same amount of lat with a little more bicep, rhomboid, mid and lower trap, etc , due to the greater ROM and resistance so is generally a better choice out of the two.
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What's funny is I always wondered the opposite... "How are people so easily able to do their second set of 10 when doing 10s?" Same thing with 15s.... 5s it seems a little easier. Other than the first one or two days, my muscles don't seem able to get another set of 10 after the first one. This is with resting up to say 3 minutes on bench/OHP, but maybe even going to 5 minutes of rest on squats. I was beginning to wonder if maybe my muscle endurance just sucks ?

I'd be glad if I heard others do their second set with 5 reps when on the 10s cycle, since that seems to jive with how my body operates. (Same thing with 15s... my second set is maybe close to 10 but never 15... other than maybe on the first two days of the cycle.)
 
Press
Squat
Bent Row
Pull Up
Chin Up
Squat(Alt w/ Deadlift ie. Squat-Mon, Dead-Wed, Squat-Fri, Dead-Mon, etc.)
Dips? - for chest (I don't have a machine to do it on)
Dumbbell Flyes?
Shrugs(Traps?) - I need a good traps exercise

I'm writing all this down so someone experienced can format it out in an AM/PM cycle, feel free to remove exercises and what not. Thanks!
 
I would just ditch the Dumbell Flyes and Pull ups while adding in SLDLs, Good Mornings or Leg Curls (if you’re still having lower back problems) to balance out your legs. That should total 7 exercises which should be doable in one session without needing an AM/PM split.

If you still wanted to do a spilt then you could try:

AM
Squat/Deadlift
Chest Dips
Chin Up
SLDL/Good Mornings/Leg Curls

PM
Row
Press
Shrugs

There are other variations but if I were doing an AM/PM split I would divide up the pushing and pulling movements between the sessions rather than do a Push/Pull split (just my preference though).
 
grunt11 said:
I would just ditch the Dumbell Flyes and Pull ups while adding in SLDLs, Good Mornings or Leg Curls (if you’re still having lower back problems) to balance out your legs. That should total 7 exercises which should be doable in one session without needing an AM/PM split.

If you still wanted to do a spilt then you could try:

AM
Squat/Deadlift
Chest Dips
Chin Up
SLDL/Good Mornings/Leg Curls

PM
Row
Press
Shrugs

There are other variations but if I were doing an AM/PM split I would divide up the pushing and pulling movements between the sessions rather than do a Push/Pull split (just my preference though).
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Why no pull ups or flyes? Just wondering. Apparently I just strained it...so, it should be good by the time I start working out again as it feels better right now. I heard AM/PM were better though?
 
TheSeeker07 said:
Why no pull ups or flyes? Just wondering. Apparently I just strained it...so, it should be good by the time I start working out again as it feels better right now. I heard AM/PM were better though?
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Just wondering what arguments where used, to back that up?
Over time, it wouldn't allow for more work, as recovery would be the deciding factor.
I'd imagine only veterans requiring very high volume, would gain any real benefits from using these kinds of splits?
 
Why no pull ups or flyes?
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I would leave most isolation exercises like Flyes until after you’ve developed a base of strength and muscle from doing compound exercises for several reasons. Compounds are more time efficient. They usually are more transferable to real world use of your muscles and IMO the most important give you balanced development. Achieving good balanced development helps prevent injuries by bringing up the condition of your muscles proportionally so that you have less chance of tearing something down the road when the less developed muscles have to strain too hard to keep up. If you don’t think this is true my boss, who is doing P90X, just tore I think it was his Brachioradialis doing Preacher Curls of all things. And P90X doesn’t even have you doing heavy weights.

No pull ups because you’ve already got Chin Ups and Rows and Deadlifts for lat development. Why add another lat exercise that adds nothing additional (stretch, or peak contraction) to the muscle.

I heard AM/PM were better though?
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That depends on a lot of factors to in depth to discuss here. There’s a lot written about timing of frequency on this site so here are a few relevant links:

You may have to scroll down to find the relevant posts.

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12708-Optimizing-HST

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?9777-Customizing-HST

The E-book linked in this thread is probably the definitive work on how to customize HST:

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?16166-PIMP-MY-HST-E-BOOK&highlight=pimp

There’s a lot of good information in those threads however like the name of this thread Fausto started “Simplify and Win!” is probably the best strategy to start with. Until you have a good baseline to work from tweaking your routine probably won’t gain you much since you won’t know how well vanilla HST was working for you in the first place. Therefore you won’t know what tweaks might help you out the most or even at all.

I highly suggest getting at least one if not two vanilla HST routines under your belt before tweaking much. Develop neural adaptation to the compound exercises you what to use in every routine from now on. Find out how well your body recovers from working out every other day. Get your eating in line so you are gaining weight. Once you’ve accomplished all those thing then progress on to more customized variations of HST.
 
grunt11 said:
I would leave most isolation exercises like Flyes until after you’ve developed a base of strength and muscle from doing compound exercises for several reasons. Compounds are more time efficient. They usually are more transferable to real world use of your muscles and IMO the most important give you balanced development. Achieving good balanced development helps prevent injuries by bringing up the condition of your muscles proportionally so that you have less chance of tearing something down the road when the less developed muscles have to strain too hard to keep up. If you don’t think this is true my boss, who is doing P90X, just tore I think it was his Brachioradialis doing Preacher Curls of all things. And P90X doesn’t even have you doing heavy weights.

No pull ups because you’ve already got Chin Ups and Rows and Deadlifts for lat development. Why add another lat exercise that adds nothing additional (stretch, or peak contraction) to the muscle.
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I've been doing HST for close to almost a year, I'm not sure how you would consider whether or not that was enough time to be able to develop base strength or not though. I'm definitely no where near my goal which is 215-220 ~15-20% body fat. I currently weight 175-180, my problem is dieting...

P90x is mainly a body fat reducing routine, correct?

Chin ups really focus more on biceps compared to the lats I thought. Rows... Yeah, they do work the lats but deadlifts don't necessarily focus on them though, do they?


grunt11 said:
That depends on a lot of factors to in depth to discuss here. There’s a lot written about timing of frequency on this site so here are a few relevant links:

You may have to scroll down to find the relevant posts.

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12708-Optimizing-HST

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?9777-Customizing-HST

The E-book linked in this thread is probably the definitive work on how to customize HST:

http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?16166-PIMP-MY-HST-E-BOOK&highlight=pimp

There’s a lot of good information in those threads however like the name of this thread Fausto started “Simplify and Win!” is probably the best strategy to start with. Until you have a good baseline to work from tweaking your routine probably won’t gain you much since you won’t know how well vanilla HST was working for you in the first place. Therefore you won’t know what tweaks might help you out the most or even at all.

I highly suggest getting at least one if not two vanilla HST routines under your belt before tweaking much. Develop neural adaptation to the compound exercises you what to use in every routine from now on. Find out how well your body recovers from working out every other day. Get your eating in line so you are gaining weight. Once you’ve accomplished all those thing then progress on to more customized variations of HST.
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If you mind me PM'ing you so we could talk a little more that'd be great, especially about dieting. That's where I really struggle at...
 
I've been doing HST for close to almost a year, I'm not sure how you would consider whether or not that was enough time to be able to develop base strength or not though.
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Sorry, I misinterpreted the amount of time you’ve been doing HST from the back problems you are having. It made it seem like you started more recently since you just mentioned the problems recently.

I might still skip doing Flyes depending on how your chest development has already gone. In other words how much you Bench or Chest Dip compared to your body weight and whether you visibly think your chest is lagging behind. By all means do them if you want but unless you have a specific need, like lagging pecs, you will very likely get more out of doing another compound exercise for your chest rather than and isolation exercise.

Chin ups really focus more on biceps compared to the lats I thought. Rows... Yeah, they do work the lats but deadlifts don't necessarily focus on them though, do they?
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I consider Chin Ups and Rows superior to Pull ups. Chins Ups allow you to do more weight than Pull Ups and also allow a greater range of motion. Both of which are better for hypertrophy. Chin Ups are primarily a lat exercise, especially if you focus on using the lats for pulling. As the weight gets heavier you can’t keep the Biceps out of the equation however that’s not because they are taking anything away from the lat involvement but actually assisting them in lifting more weight. So as the weight get very heavy the Biceps do more work but the lats still do the same as if you were doing Pull Ups. I’m not saying that Pull Ups aren’t effective just that IMO you get more out of Chin Ups.

If you do heavy Deadlifts then you know that they work the lats quite hard, though more statically than through a large range of motion. However, that static contraction might be twice your body weight. Good luck doing that with a Pull Up.

I used to think the same as you, that Pull Ups made the lats wider. However, I don’t find that to be the case after trying both, and from what I’ve read about the importance of range of motion and using heavier loads to hypertrophy.

If you mind me PM'ing you so we could talk a little more that'd be great, especially about dieting. That's where I really struggle at...
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No problem if you want to PM me however, it might be better just to post in my log thread or create your own thread with your questions. I say that because there may be other people with the same questions or coming here with them later who would benefit from the discussion. Not to mention there are a lot of more experienced people here than me who might have a better answer for you than I would.
 
*raises hand*

I have a few questions if some of you might help.

These questions might sound really stupid. In any case know i'm not patronizing or trolling.

1. Why alternate deads and squats. it goes against the rule (repeated bout?) that you need to stimulate the same muscle within 48hrs. and why deads period for size. It seems to be a compound back exercise. And lower back from the feel of it. People want a big lower back? Squats everytime seems like the better choice to me.

2. Earlier something OP said stuck with me about not doing bi/tri specific exercises cause they hurt your compounds. What if they're the last exercise you do?

3. This one is kind of funny. I can't do pullups or dips really. Not more than like 3 or 4. And even if i do get passed that i don't have a dip belt yet.

Considering that fact and taking my routine now: squats, incline bench, military or ohp (still can't remember the difference), bent over rows, curls, tri extenstions, and calf raises.

So it seems I should actually scrap the last 3 exercises and add dead lifts right?
 
sudolibre said:
I have a few questions if some of you might help.

These questions might sound really stupid. In any case know i'm not patronizing or trolling.

1. Why alternate deads and squats. it goes against the rule (repeated bout?) that you need to stimulate the same muscle within 48hrs. and why deads period for size. It seems to be a compound back exercise. And lower back from the feel of it. People want a big lower back? Squats everytime seems like the better choice to me.
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There is a lot of overlap between different lifts. Squats and deads both hammer the lower back, doing them both in the same workout can be stressful. It's not a big deal if you haven't yet developed a lot of strength - I used to do them in the same day myself, back when I was first starting out. There is no way in hell I would ever consider doing them in the same day now though. As for the 48 hour rule - there is no 48 hour rule. Because deadlifts and squats hit so much of the body, you will have overlap in those muscle groups with many other lifts - rows, other leg exercises, anything that hits the back, etc etc, so only doing them once or twice a week won't be a big deal. The 48 hour rule that you speak of is merely a suggestion - the key is to have enough frequency, doesn't necessarily have to be every 48 hours for each muscle group though.
Why would anyone want a strong lower back? Well, the lower back is pretty much integral to the body. If you have a stronger lower back, you will be more resistant to lower back problems and injuries. Deadlifts probably are one of the best exercises for strengthening the lower back. Probably why Benni Magnusson did them to help heal his back after he broke it in a motorcycle accident.

2. Earlier something OP said stuck with me about not doing bi/tri specific exercises cause they hurt your compounds. What if they're the last exercise you do?
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That's fine. Do them last in the day.

3. This one is kind of funny. I can't do pullups or dips really. Not more than like 3 or 4. And even if i do get passed that i don't have a dip belt yet.
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If you have an assisted dip or assisted chinup machine at your gym, that is a good option.
 
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