Simplify and Win!

Alternating deads/squats will work fine for the immediate future , assuming your deadlift numbers "fit" (ie. reflect normal proportional percentages) numbers on the lifts you did post up in your log - you've got a cycle or two before 1x/wk becomes optimal(IMHO). There's a lot to be said for "greasing the groove" while your load/recovery allows it (which won't be very long).
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1x/wk with2x/squats will work fine too - really up to you , but like I said IMHO alternated IS a bit more "optimal" at first till loads/recovery dictate otherwise.
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Sounds good, you're the boss
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I'll alternate Squats with DL's. My DL's might actually be a lil lower than my squats, because I've always done SLDL's, it's not till a week ago that I saw a video of REAL deadlifts and the form is quite a bit different from the SLDL's I was doing before. So now that I'm doing actual deadlifts, I won't go as heavy as I can to make sure I get the form right.

As far as volume, I've decided to finish my 2nd week of 15s with 1x15, continue onto 2x10 and then 4x5 (if my body gets too sore what not, I can always reduce to 3x5). Volume seems to be more of a personal option and must be gauged according to the body's response, so for now I'll go with that volume and we'll see how it works out.

Thanks for all the help guys, especially Russ who commented a bunch on my log and helped me see the light to simplification! Will keep up with updates in my log and hopefully all this helps me pack on some pounds.
 
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(Old and Grey @ Sep. 11 2006,07:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I tend to put in one set of iso's for bi's and tri's. I find it necessary to keep my arm size up after so many years of lifting. Maybe it's psychological. True beginners shouldn't bother with them as they can be counter-productive in the beginning because of their relative small size. Unless you are looking to compete, I don't think a person really has to go beyond a &quot;beginners&quot; workout, with some change in exercise selection once in a while as long as they continue the weight progression, have proper nutrition, limit stress and have the requisite testosterone production.</div>
ok guys. sorry to bring up an old thread but i cant figure out just exactly why having isolation exercises for arms would be counter productive if the muscles are still small? when would you add an isolation exercise for bi's and tri's. would it result in more growth even though your bi's and tri's are lifting more load with big compounds? or would you add the isos to help with fat reduction in that specific area or for instance. if the only pulling compounds are bent over rows and lat pulls and you always do them with palms facing you. then is there a need to add hammer curls to hit more of the outer head of the bicep?
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">ok guys. sorry to bring up an old thread but i cant figure out just exactly why having isolation exercises for arms would be counter productive if the muscles are still small?</div>

This has been discussed &quot;ad-nauseum&quot;, but to put it simply, it &quot;robs&quot; your strength on bigger more effective compounds that can enhance smaller muscle groups anyway...it is counter productive!

I'd add them only once I am:

Benching 1 1/2 x body weight / Squatting 2 x BW / Deadlifting at least 2 x BW/Chinning with at least 1/4 BW attached/Dipping with 1/2 BW attached and last but not least Military pressing or at least push pressing BW x 1.

Then and only then it is worth adding a couple bicep+tricep isolations to enhance things up and maybe some lateral raises to add to the shoulder triple head arrangement.

Maybe I am being a little harsh...but I beliece by then all those little muscle groups would have grown well and then there is space to add a little extra and get creative
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">or would you add the isos to help with fat reduction in that specific area or for instance. </div>

That is a fad...spot reduction is not possible!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">if the only pulling compounds are bent over rows and lat pulls and you always do them with palms facing you. then is there a need to add hammer curls to hit more of the outer head of the bicep?</div>

The bicep will get extremelly good stimulation is you do chins with palms facing you and alternate with rows palms facing out, you get the best of lat growth and bicep growth as side effect, what more could you possibly want?
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After typing this in last night I forgot to actually post it! Sorry if it's repeating Fausto's comments but sometimes a little repetition is a good thing.  
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Arms play an important role in upper body compound exercises. So, it could be counter productive if you overdid arm work because any unnecessary extra fatigue and/or strength loss in your arms due to extra arm work will compromise the loads you can use for the compounds.

If you switched to a compounds only routine after having used arm isos for a while, it might well be worth your while throwing in a set or two of arm isos. Do this at least until you are strong enough to use a high enough load in your compounds such that the stress on your arm muscles is as much as it was from direct iso work. For isos I would recommend stretch point movements (rather then just doing something that you fancy) as you won't be hitting your bis and tris that way with the heavier compound lifts.

You aren't going to be able to spot reduce fat on your arms.

If you vary the grip you use when doing rows and chins you encourage balanced forearm/upper-arm development.
 
If you are a noob, and your compounds are not very heavy, the arms might need more stimulation. But many of the seasoned lifters will need none or only occasional stimulation due to the workload of the comps. I get in an iso every other workout, and it works for me, for now , at this time in my present conditioning.
This could change eventually due to other factors. But it won't as long as I'm also doing carpentry and things, using only compounds in my workouts and trying not to eat too much.
 
Back to the point of this thread, I think it is worth referencing the FAQ on this one. This post from Bryan is pretty good:

Selecting exercises and related topics

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
I am a big fan of reducing the number of exercises and increasing the number of sets. For example, if you can stick with only 4 or 5 exercises per workout (e.g. squats, dips, chins, shoulders [only an example]) you can get in some really good work for the whole body without running around the gym from exericse to exercise. When doing this I definitely recommend using 2 different sets of exercises which you alternate between each workout, each set of exercises still geared towards major muscle groups with compound lifts. This is for overall body growth/mass.

If over time, a person feels they are neglecting a minor muscle group, it is easily addressed in a cycle or two before a competition (bodybuilding).

This is the most common mistake I see - people do too many exercises each workout on HST. They are so concerned with hitting every possible exercise that they aren't able to really focus on any of them.
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I've noticed that a lot of people alternate pull-downs and rows (a vertical pull and a horizontal pull) rather than doing both in the same workout. For those that do this, do you find it sufficient for your back development? I'm asking because the back is such a large and complex group of muscles that I'm wondering if this is enough work for it.
 
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(EL_VIEJO @ Jan. 07 2008,21:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've noticed that a lot of people alternate pull-downs and rows (a vertical pull and a horizontal pull) rather than doing both in the same workout. For those that do this, do you find it sufficient for your back development? I'm asking because the back is such a large and complex group of muscles that I'm wondering if this is enough work for it.</div>
Bear in mind that the back is also hit really hard with heavy deadlifting, in both the upper and lower areas (from traps to spinal erectors). Deadlifts, along with rows and some form of chinning all in one week, provide more than sufficient strain and work to stimulate growth all over the back. Volume will enter into the equation too of course. The back is also working hard to stabilise your torso when heavy squatting.

Although not essential, it's quite a good idea to vary your rows and chins from time to time. There are so many muscles involved in these compound movements that some will be stressed slightly differently depending on hand orientation, grip width etc. It helps prevent a bit of mental rot setting in too.
 
I'd say it's total back work, excepting the trapezius set.
I prefer Pendlays and weighted Pullups myself though...
there's just something about pulling YOU up or pulling a MASS of iron off the floor! Most satisfying indeed!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">there's just something about pulling YOU up or pulling a MASS of iron off the floor! Most satisfying indeed! </div>

Agreed! Damn...tried some pull/ups - Chin/ups mix yesterday after 2 weeks break (holiday induced) and I was pooped, could not complete the 30 reps intended, by the way no weight was used as this was 15's x 2 sets.

But on a good day when I get to lift 20 - 25 Kgs and do at least 5 chin ups...man...it feels goooood
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<div>
(Lol @ Jan. 07 2008,17:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bear in mind that the back is also hit really hard with heavy deadlifting, in both the upper and lower areas (from traps to spinal erectors).</div>
LOL,
That's a good point. Actually, during this cycle I haven't been doing any vertical pulls because of a shoulder problem that I felt was being aggravated by them. However, I plan on adding them in next cycle and was debating whether to alternate them with rows or do rows and pull-ups every workout.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I prefer Pendlays and weighted Pullups myself though.</div>
Quad,
I've been reading about Pendlays and I'm going to give them a try next cycle. Looks like they need a bit of practice to do properly. I'm a long way from weighted pullups. When I start B/W pullups next cycle I'm going to have to do them max-stim style, since I can barely do 3 reps.
 
Well the beauty of pullups is that they come up fairly fast...you add one here and there and before long you're repping off like an oil pump. Negs are easy with them if you have a milk crate, and MS is too.
Pendlays to me are bread and butter, isometrics for the extensiors, and as far as form goes, you have to work hard at keeping the full ROM to the top (which will denegrate somewhat regardless in the heavies) and find your best width. I go thumbs slightly wider than shoulders and get the best pull, which is also my comfort zone.
 
This is a very good thread. My conclusion is that once I have finished my SST cycle, I'd use these exercises:

A / B
Barbell Overhead Press / Barbell Upright Row
Chest Dips / Flat Bench Barbell Press
Bent-Over Barbell Row / Chin Ups
Barbell Squat / Barbell Deadlift
 
<u>The ultimate simplified HST program:
SQUAT, BENCH, ROW.</u>
period.
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(Of course you want to do multiple sets when doing any simplified HST program.)
 
Slight different opinion to sci's suggestion, I'd pick the big five as we do here in S. Africa.

Elephant/Buffalo/Lion/Leopard/Giraffe/

equate it

Deadlifts/Squats/Bench Press/Mil. press - push press/Rows

That covers the whole body
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I agree w/ Fausto on a BB'er standpoint. Sci's would be more for prioritising energy to build strengths for PL.
I love using two simple routines and alternating. Bench with Incline DB or dips, Squats with deads, Pendlays with weighted pullups, and alternating bicep and tricep iso's. That way I hit everything (except one arm side) each workout and hit each again but differently the next workout.
Lately trying to specialize for my pecs I've added in flyes/pec deck to the above routine for extra volume.
 
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(XFatMan @ Feb. 04 2008,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is a very good thread. My conclusion is that once I have finished my SST cycle, I'd use these exercises:

A / B
Barbell Overhead Press / Barbell Upright Row
Chest Dips / Flat Bench Barbell Press
Bent-Over Barbell Row / Chin Ups
Barbell Squat / Barbell Deadlift</div>
Not bad, but be careful with the Upright Rows. If you bring the bar up too high, you can easily damage your shoulders. Depending on variants of shoulder physiology some guys may not be able to do them safely at all.
 
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