The Essential Borge Fagerli (Blade)

Discussion in 'General Training' started by abanger, Jul 16, 2009.

  1. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (CoolColJ @ Aug. 04 2009,12:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">yeah it's basicly rest pause- sorta without the fatigue. That's the idea, avoid fatigue to allow more volume once your in the optimal recruitment rate coding zone.
    Going to failure will reduce rate coding</div>
    but how do you know that allowing 20seconds will still keep you in the rate coding zone [​IMG] because if it isnt then doing your 10rm for 3reps is going to do nada.
     
  2. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Do them with your 100% 10-12rm. Then tell me you're not in the zone.
    Everything about this system seems to bring pumps I've never felt before. When reps drop off to 2 at 20 sec. intervals, you KNOW you're doing it right.
     
  3. leegee38

    leegee38 Member

    <div>
    (faz @ Aug. 19 2009,2:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but how do you know that allowing 20seconds will still keep you in the rate coding zone  [​IMG]  because if it isnt  then doing your 10rm for 3reps is going to do nada.</div>
    I think this is the part that some folks are missing, Faz. If you use your 6RM for any set basically all reps are at full recruitment. So when you do your additional RP sets after the short rest if you can't do 6 reps or more you can be fairly certain that they were all at full recruitment. In effect you are using what amounts to your 6RM (or less) at that point. This is why it is important to &quot;approach&quot; failure with the RP sets rather than stop at a predetermined rep count.
     
  4. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ New Member

    If you get within 1-2 reps from failure you will have fatigued a lot of fibers for sure.
    Try it on squats, and even after 40 secs rest like I use, a triple doesn't exactly feel too easy. It feels just like a 3-5RM lift, and it even feels just as heavy on your back

    as for my myo-reps on squats I'm up 295x10+3+3+2+2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9ud72yro8s&amp;fmt=18
    I had a bit of a burn on the 10th rep and could have done an 11th, but figured it would have made the mini-sets way too hard  [​IMG]
    if you remeber a few pages back, I started at 275x7+3+3+2+2. And I'm still leaning up, while my strength continues to climb

    Just by how the warmup sets feel now, a lot easier, I can tell I've gained real muscle and strength. Clean Deadlift feels much easier now and my vertical jump has gone up along with the squat strength gains
     
  5. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (leegee38 @ Aug. 20 2009,3:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (faz @ Aug. 19 2009,2:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but how do you know that allowing 20seconds will still keep you in the rate coding zone  [​IMG]  because if it isnt  then doing your 10rm for 3reps is going to do nada.</div>
    I think this is the part that some folks are missing, Faz.  If you use your 6RM for any set basically all reps are at full recruitment.  So when you do your additional RP sets after the short rest if you can't do 6 reps or more you can be fairly certain that they were all at full recruitment.  In effect you are using what amounts to your 6RM (or less) at that point.  This is why it is important to &quot;approach&quot; failure with the RP sets rather than stop at a predetermined rep count.</div>
    i understand that at 6rm or lower you are engaging all fibres,but myo-reps only get down to 6rm at the latter stages,so when you use your 10rm and stop at 9 then as blade states only the last 2 reps are the ones that count,but after that again using you 10rm for sets of 3 how do you know 20secs is enough time allowance,were is the evidence of this.afterall your stoping short of faliure so why do 9x3x3x3x3x2 etcwhy not go 9x8x7 with 20secs inbetween

    quadman i can get a massive pump from doing dropsets
     
  6. faz, you don't do 3 rep mini-sets after the activation because you could do 8 but choose to stop at 3. The point is that you can do 4 reps due to fatigue so you stop at 3 (short of failure). If you can do 9x8x7 with 20 secs in between you certainly could have done way more then 9 in the activation set or should increase the weight.
    The point that concerns me is if the 3 reps in the mini-set, even if they feel like a 3-4RM due to fatigue, are providing significant hypertrophyc stimuli or if it would be better to use a 4RM to do triples instead with longer rest intervals to avoid the CNS bite.
     
  7. faz

    faz Active Member

    but aren't you supposed to stop 1 short of faliure in the activation set,ie 10rm do 9
     
  8. Yes, but if you do 9 reps with your 10RM, wait 15-20 secs and can do 8 reps with 1 in the tank there is something wrong I believe. Fatigue should have you reping 3, 4 times. Try reducing the interval to 10 secs in that case. In any case, as a disclaimer, I am only writing what I understood from the MyoReps pages, I am not endorsing it.
     
  9. faz

    faz Active Member

    i understand your not endorsing it,but again how does anyone know that 10,20,30,or 40seconds is enough time,and that your still in the rate coding zone.
     
  10. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ New Member

    ATP takes at least good 20 secs to recycle, that's why you take that break
    10 secs isn't really enough long enough from my experience

    the heavier and bigger the movement like squats, the longer the rest period can be, but even in small movements, I find 15 secs is about the lowest I'd go. 10 secs rest with another 5 to get ready

    If the set feels hard and you have to exert effort and focus, then rate coding is high. All rate coding means you have to focus and make an effort to drive the load up, kinda like what happens when you have a 85%+ load on the bar...  [​IMG]

    Honestly, no need to overthink things....
    If your getting stronger and stronger every session, things are working properly
     
  11. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I have to agree with Electric. And nowhere did I see over 20 seconds recommended; I'm sure research was done before setting up the program, and it IS very simple until we start tweaking it.
    As for drop sets, yeah, you can get pumped, but your TUT won't equal MR sets due to fatigue dropping off the weight. Fatigue management is obviously superior, as evidenced by CoolJ's increases. Drop sets never made me any stronger, but probably did do something for the endurance levels.
     
  12. leegee38

    leegee38 Member

    <div>
    (faz @ Aug. 20 2009,2:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i understand your not endorsing it,but again how does anyone know that 10,20,30,or 40seconds is enough time,and that your still in the rate coding zone.</div>
    Electric has been providing good answers, Faz. We agree that if you can only do 6 you are at full recruitment for each rep, right? Well ... if you stop at 3 because that is one rep shy of failure then you couldn't have done 6, right? So all reps were almost certainly at full recruitment, which occurs a bit before failure. Complete failure probably increases the rate coding to full tetany and is much harder on the CNS.

    My simple answer is: you will know IF your 10-20 second rest is accomplishing what you want if you cannot complete 6 reps, but can do at least 2.
     
  13. BenReffell

    BenReffell New Member

    From what I recall about ATP it can take anywhere from a few seconds to several minutes to replenish. It all depends on how hard the muscle has just worked both aerobically and anaerobically.

    20secs does sound like a good starting point to me though. This week I did play around with Myo reps using the weight from my first set for 10s, but quickly felt that 20secs was too long, I only seemed to need about 10secs cos of the light weight &amp; I'm mostly only doing 1 exercise per muscle. Also I found that counting breaths distracted me and it was better to go by &quot;feel&quot;, i.e. as soon as I felt I could do the next set of myo-reps I went for it. I'm sure I'll be up around the 20sec rest mark once I'm into the heavier weights, now that I've decided to continue with myo-reps for this cycle.

    Also don't think your muscles will be back to 100% ATP in 20secs, if it was wouldn't we be able to do another full set and not just a few myo-reps? 20secs might only replenish 50% of your ATP.
     
  14. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I'm certain of that. I'm not even sure it's really ATP that is the issue, as much as oxygen replenishment and waste removal.
    At any rate, I've found 20 seconds to be necessary for most things to stay in the 3 rep range, but I've not tried this at percentages below 100. I see no point in it, since I've not made a program of it.
     
  15. trump

    trump New Member

    <div>
    (BenReffell @ Aug. 21 2009,5:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">....This week I did play around with Myo reps using the weight from my first set for 10s, but quickly felt that 20secs was too long....</div>
    Yep, the standard MyoReps method is you get 10-15 seconds rest after the activation set. This later moves to 15-30 seconds rest once number of reps drops/becomes grindy in the first group of mini-sets.
     
  16. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    WTF; GRINDY??? You go to 2 reps if a third rep slows. I woulnd't wuss down thesystem or cheat it by resting too long. Too short rests, and you have fatigue issues, but too long and you'd deactivate. Did the program actually say that; 30 second rests?
    Not being harsh, I just don't recall that.
     
  17. Everyone is different, I think the point of MR is that if the weight &quot;feels&quot; like a 3-4RM to YOU, then that's the ticket. You might be a recovery freak and only need 5 secs or you might be some tired bum like me and need more. If you do 3 reps (or whatever size cluster you are going for) with like 1 rep in the tank you did it right (according to what I read).
     
  18. CoolColJ

    CoolColJ New Member

    Myo-reps as written by Borge using fatigue stops

    10-15 sec rest for triples for example until it gets hard
    then you switch to 30 secs or so rest and do sets of 2, when it gets hard, you stop

    so there is a bit of autoregulation going on

    your not always gonna be able to do +3+3+2+2
    and other times you can do double the number of 2s
    for example I did 11plates x 9+3+3+2+2+2+2+2+2 on calf raises last workout
    And they sure got bigger this week   [​IMG]

    The idea is to delay fatigue and get the volume in while the fire is hot

    for squats I just do a flat 30-40secs rest.
    And squats and deadlifts are the only thing he doesn't recommend to myo-reps. That's why longer rest is a good idea for obvious reasons.
    Smaller movements that don't tax the system as much, and work as many muscle groups, don't require as much rest off course
     
  19. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Well that explains why I can do 20 secs and go to 2's with bench, but doing it with SLDL's like to killed me!
     
  20. trump

    trump New Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Aug. 24 2009,9:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">WTF; GRINDY???
    ......&lt;snip&gt;.....
    Did the program actually say that; 30 second rests?</div>
    Heheh, Grindy, as in slow. You know what I mean, when your normal (for you) lifting tempo slows down, and you're prob 1-2 reps short of failure.

    And yeah, it does actually say upto 30 seconds. Seems a little long. When I first read it, I somehow had it in my mind it was a strict 10 and 20 second rests. But re-reading again, the method is fairly broad in its recommendations.

    Some of the confusion about the rest times may be stemming from the fact you use two different rest times for a single Myo-Reps set. Lets call them the &quot;short rest&quot; and the &quot;long rest&quot;.

    The recommended times:
    short rest = 10 - 15 seconds
    long rest = 15 - 30 seconds

    Thus using a 10RM, in sequence the myo-reps set might be:
    - 9 reps activation set
    - 10 seconds rest (short rest)
    - 3 reps
    - 10 seconds rest (short rest)
    - 3 reps, here the 3rd rep slowed down, dare I say grindy, hehe. This is what Borge calls Exhaustion Point 1 (UP1)
    - 20 seconds rest (Long rest)
    - 2 reps
    - 20 seconds rest (Long rest)
    - 2 reps
    - 20 seconds rest (Long rest)
    - 2 reps, here the 2nd rep slowed down, so now your done. This is what Borge calls Exhaustion Point 2 (UP2)
     

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