What do you guys think is better

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(scientific muscle @ Feb. 11 2007,18:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, I am glad that most of you guys respect my opinion even though I am a little weeny.</div>
That's better than HAVING a little wiener.    
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(Aaron_F @ Feb. 11 2007,19:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(stevejones @ Feb. 12 2007,12:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">5'9&quot;@195 lbs with 5% bodyfat is not a small man</div>
repeating things will not make him bigger

and PS

he was NOT 195 in competition trim

he was closer to 185</div>
Going off on wild tangents about who was bigger on the mr. olympia stage, comparing bbers of different eras, and talking about 300 lb polynesians does not change the fact that Frank Zane was not a small guy.
 
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(Old and Grey @ Feb. 11 2007,17:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And Joe, sorry but I don't take investment advice from people who have made less money then me. I take advice from people who have made more money than me. I would advise you to do the same.</div>
O&amp;G,

I get your point and I am a fan of you, you know that.

I could go on a tangent and say some personal things that some would or would not believe:

I don't agree with your statement on taking advice from someone else who has made more money than me per se.

For example you have to look at things in perspective. For Example what if I said hypothetically.

I am only 28 years old, and I am not going to get into my personal business but to have at 28 years old 2 cars paid for 2 homes paid for with no mortgage 1 real estate lot that is investment property and flipped my first home last year for a 25% profit within 5 weeks and started my own company 6 months ago ( I sure hope it continues to do well), this doesn't make me dumb either.

I have had retirement account in place since 18 as well as mutual funds and now 529 plans for the little one.

I wouldnt say this to brag or boast b/c in reality its nothing special just something me and the mrs. put our minds too a long time ago. Just like bodybuilding its daily dedication.

I could take advice from in this situation from a person who is a millionaire at 60, but were I came from its more impressive pound for pound with what someone does in a short amount of time. In my situation above I feel like I know what the hell im doing better than lots of other peers in my business.

So with all do repect I don't take advice from someone who has taken them 40 years to get to were I want to go in 10.
 
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(stevejones @ Feb. 12 2007,13:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Going off on wild tangents about who was bigger on the mr. olympia stage, comparing bbers of different eras, and talking about 300 lb polynesians does not change the fact that Frank Zane was not a small guy.</div>
You were justifying his size by his accomplishments.  His accomplishments do not make him bigger.

He was never big, he was a damn awsome bbr, but big he wasnt.

Saying it time and time again does not make it so.

Evn you said he was small for an olympia, and in those days, all were relatively small compared to the modernm freaks. Lee Labrada was 5'6&quot; and 175-185 in competition and he was small in terms of bbing. Fantastic, but small.

Lee Priest is ~5'3&quot; and competes just over 200lbs and up into the 270s in off season.

Even modern drug tested amatuers can be larger than some of the early olympias.

Winning olympia's does not make you big, being big makes you big.
 
&quot;Vanilla whey tastes good..&quot;

&quot;Vanilla doesn't taste good. In order to taste good, it has to be chocolate.&quot;

&quot;no it doesn't. Chocolate is good, but vanilla is good.&quot;

&quot;You all know polynesian punch tastes good.&quot;

&quot;No, chocolate tastes good.&quot;

&quot;But vanilla is good.&quot;

&quot;It can't be good, because it isn't chocolate.&quot;

&quot;You haven't tasted good unless you've tasted polynesian punch...&quot;

Stupidest thread ever!!!
 
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(etothepii @ Feb. 11 2007,19:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Stupidest thread ever!!!</div>
What is stupid about this thread is that when Joe originally asked what people's opinions were about Bryan's HST method versus Lyle's bulking program, instead of discussing the merits of each program and comparing them, people talk about how Lyle is small so he must not know what he is talking about.

This is neverminding the fact that his bulking program and HST are VERY similar and in fact based on the same principles.
 
Exactly.

The only reason for this thread...and maybe is my fault for not being clear.

Was to discuss to Experts opinions on training.

If I could sit down at dinner with Bryan,Blade,Aaron,Dan,Lyle and others I would ask a ton of questions b/c they are all experts and its good to have a roundtable per se around great advice from different people.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You were justifying his size by his accomplishments.  His accomplishments do not make him bigger.</div>

No, I simply said he was a mr. olympia, and from that you construe way too much.  

According to wikipedia, he was 185 contest weight &amp; had 18.5&quot; arms at a height of 5'9&quot;.  With those measurements,  I think it's ridiculous to call him small and then post 10 times trying to justify your position.  So, you think what you want and compare him to as many olympians as you wish.   With those stats, Frank Zane was not a small man.

Yeah, Joe, your initial question to this board was what do we think about Lyle's program.  The problem I have with Lyle is that on his website he said he has worked with mostly endurance athletes, just a few powerlifters and some bodybuilders.  If I was a triathlete, I'd be interested, but those credentials aren't impressive enough for me as a bber....well, powerlifter...whatever I am, lol.  

There is something that Aaron said about coaching which is often very true, not only in bbing circles but almost all sports.  Very often the best coaches kind of sucked in their sports, or at least they weren't spectacular, despite trying hard.   Despite having a slow start, I've had some...mildly spectacular I suppose ...success at bbing.  I've attributed alot of it to being good at recognizing different programs that would work, but perhaps my genetics are better than I had previously thought.  

Maybe guys who aren't as genetically gifted are more patient with science than I am, and the physiques or perceived lack of experience from guys like Lyle doesn't bother them.  Maybe guys like Lyle have to go through the same challenges as them, so they are better able to relate to him. I have just never had to delve deeply into science to get the results I want. As soon as I think I've reached a plateau, I'll get on some new program and impress myself again. Guess not everyone can do that.
 
Things always get more interesting when Aaron joins in. Yeah, banana is definitely the best. (Hope the lifting's going well mate. Any notable PB's of recent times?)

Cool shades on those guys, Sci! Couldn't listen to them though, I don't trust their shifty look.  
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Zane, Padilla, Columbu, Labrada, Mackawy etc. - all short guys but with a lot more muscle than the average. However, if you saw them walking down the street you would not think that they were big. If you saw Andy Bolton or Lou Ferigno walking down the street I'm sure you would think they were big. Big is such a relative term.

I agree with Joe that it might well be foolish to dismiss out of hand someone who has in a relatively short time produced results that are as good as those of others who have taken far longer to achieve the same thing, whatever the area of expertise. Good results Joe!

Also, it has to be worth at least listening to a guy who has built his house through dedication and consistency and without having to resort to outside help (if you believe him) however long it has taken him, just to add more grist for your mill. There's always something to be learned from another's experiences even if it just adds credence to what you already believe.
 
Hugo Rivera impresses me most, even with his weird exersizes and stuff. But building that bod naturally got me to reading him a while back. The thing about Lyle's size was discussed to death in another thread, except for what Steve added here.
As Joe said: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I could sit down at dinner with Bryan,Blade,Aaron,Dan,Lyle and others I would ask a ton of questions b/c they are all experts and its good to have a roundtable per se around great advice from different people.</div>
I think it's more valuable to do what we all do: look around, get ideas, discuss things.
I think of this board as my peers, and because of you guys, I've changed a lot of the things that I do. To my benefit. Even you skinny lil' bastards.
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Exactly.

I sometimes ask questions not so much b/c I don't know the answer but more so from a why or why not standpoint.

I have learned so much from this board from continueing to strive to know why something does or doesn't work.

Hell if it wasn't for Totentanz bringing up calories over a year ago...I would of thought you had to eat clean to be lean....little things like this I have learned often by asking more and more indepth opinons.

Hell Scientific Muscle is not bigger than me nor has he lifted half as long as I have but I know he knows a lot of material and repect his ideas.
 
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(stevejones @ Feb. 12 2007,15:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">No, I simply said he was a mr. olympia, and from that you construe way too much.  </div>
words have meanings, and when you put them together in a sentence such as this &quot;just as it's ludicrous to say that Frank Zane, a former mr. olympia, was small &quot; appears to be attempting to justifying his size with his accomplishment. Its typically called a red herring, somethat that diverts the attention away from the intial discussion with something that has nothing to do with it.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">According to wikipedia, he was 185 contest weight &amp; had 18.5&quot; arms at a height of 5'9&quot;. With those measurements, I think it's ridiculous to call him small and then post 10 times trying to justify your position. So, you think what you want and compare him to as many olympians as you wish. With those stats, Frank Zane was not a small man.</div>
His own myspace site says 180 competition weight. And having large arms does not mean your big, it means you have large arms.

But Arnold used to call Zane a chicken with 17&quot; arms.
 
Well, I guess I'll never be &quot;big&quot; since I'm only 5' 6&quot; tall.
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(Lol @ Feb. 12 2007,15:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Things always get more interesting when Aaron joins in. Yeah, banana is definitely the best. (Hope the lifting's going well mate. Any notable PB's of recent times?)</div>
tis ok, dieting for a bit so I can grow some more, but ok, means that strength gains have stopped but eh.... A few pains here and there but thats approaching normal.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Zane, Padilla, Columbu, Labrada, Mackawy etc. - all short guys but with a lot more muscle than the average. However, if you saw them walking down the street you would not think that they were big. If you saw Andy Bolton or Lou Ferigno walking down the street I'm sure you would think they were big. Big is such a relative term.</div>

I would put a picture of Ryan Kennelly wearing a feather boa in here, but I cant find it. He sorta dwarf's Jay Cutler.

edit: found it

Don't ask me about the boa, I have no idea what it is about, more than likely something to do with his woman Kara.
cutler_ryan.jpg
 
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(etothepii @ Feb. 11 2007,22:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, I guess I'll never be &quot;big&quot; since I'm only 5' 6&quot; tall.
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As long as Arnold doesn't call you 'chicken arms', I don't think you'll have any worries. Just do your best to avoid the state of California, and don't stand next to any 300 lb Polynesians.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Feb. 11 2007,17:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If somebody like Dan gained muscle with little effort, its unlikely he would have become an obsessive hypertrophy geek.</div>
Hey now, I resemble that remark.
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Note to self: I was a pretty smart putty tat for not responding to O&amp;G's comment when he posted it, &lt;insert&gt; - pat self on back firmly here &lt;/insert&gt;
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