A few queries I have...

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by SameOldSameOld, Jul 12, 2007.

  1. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    He does not say to go to failure
     
  2. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    "Now, you may find that you are not reaching failure w/7.5-10lbs you can continue to add weight 2.5lbs at a time until you do reach your 5RM."
     
  3. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, are you reading that wrong?

    Not really sure what is confusing you about that.
    He says that if you are not hitting failure then it is ok to increase the load.
     
  4. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    So, Bryan is proposing to add weight until you do hit failure, or until the fifth pull-up can't be done, isn't he? :)
    Ok, assuming failure isn't there, he is proposing to limit workout volume to 5-10 reps per MG as weight is or gets very close to 5RM. That seems to be an older concept well suited for folks with low training age.
     
  5. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Omg... Seriously?
     
  6. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Yup, I'm a living proof of that. I used to grow during the 1st year or two doing only 1-2 sets during 5's. Now progress has almost stopped, I gotta get in some more volume.
     
  7. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'm just baffled by the fact that you cant seem to read bryans post.
     
  8. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    My bad, 1-2 sets presently have turned out to be 5-6 considering the 6 years' inflation. That's so damn obvious, sorry.
     
  9. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    don't forget the part where he said to go to failure every single set
     
  10. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    That's only 1 set if hitting failure. 2 if failure's hit on 2nd set. 3 if failure's hit on 3rd set, 4 if failure's hit on 4th set. That's it, there was no fifth set back in the day.
     
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Stop necro'ing threads ... for the love of God ...

    And read this.

    This too.

    Don't go to failure ... stop before failure. But if you're hitting the volume without going to failure, then increase.

    No, you need more load. You're experiencing RBE.

    What he said.

    Sarcasm, muscles, food. That's what Totentanz does.






    And stop necro'ing ... ffs, bloody amateur hour in here.
     
  12. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Come on, guys, are there any of you who grew close to genetic limits doing only 1-2 hard sets per MG per bout, as suggested here?
    Bryan was obviously saying to drop volume as load got heavier. It just wouldn't work after a certain line.
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I have always raised load before volume. I'm not saying 10 reps is all I ever needed, I'm saying that load comes before volume.

    Furthermore, the issue that Totentanz (apparently) & I have is the misquoting (intentional or not) to suit your own contention. Bryan is clearly saying to increasing the load whenever you can, so long as you aren't going to failure.

    a) Have you ever met someone near their genetic limits who arrived there by lifting light loads?
    b) Have you ever met someone near their genetic limits who arrived there without excessive volume?

    For me,

    a) No
    b) Yes


    You place too much trust in the Wernbom meta study. Where did the magical number of 30 come from? I can't imagine how painful doing 6 sets of my 5RM would be (well, it's not my 5RM of course, it's my 6x5RM).
     
  14. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    He isn't saying we should go to failure, that's not the point. Indeed, hitting failure at all is going to be hard on frequency. He IS saying to drop volume as weight gets heavier and heavier. That was the reason I brought this topic up.

    Won't working at 6x5RM bring both mass and strength up? Do we really need to bump the load all the way to 5RM?

    True, that's the idea, 6x5RM load, lower than true 5RM. The rep range 30-60 @load 65-85% came from tens of different researches. I just knew it existed for some time, and then I found Bryan mentioning it in an article.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    And the process of identifying that rep range has flaws . . .

    Enjoy your over-training . . .
     
  16. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    6x5 is awesome. I am doing 5x5 now, and it seems plenty, since I am cutting. But next bulking cycle, I will definitely be trying some 6x5 for part of the cycle.
     
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I can't imagine doing 6x5 3-4 times a week and having anything resembling strength gains. Size gains? Possibly, though I'd wager that there's an awful lot of glycogen storage going on - not that this matters from an aesthetics point of view.

    If you're only getting into the gym twice a week then for a fairly experienced trainee, 6x5 is probably useful (lets you meet the work-done threshold).

    I'll definitely add the caveat that 6x5 will be well suited to anyone who's doing an assisted cycle.


    Also - and this is anecdotal, I think I'd rather do two exercises @ 3x5 than one exercise at 6x5. For deads that isn't an option obviously, but Bench/Dips + Incline, Rows + Chins, Squats + Leg Press etc sounds a lot friendlier to me than 6x flat bench etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2013
  18. Sci

    Sci Well-Known Member

    Well the key is not to go too heavy. Obviously if you try to do 6x5 with your 5 rep max, that is just way too much and you'll overtrain or fail, or get injured, or possibly even die. So you just grab about 85% of your 6 rep max;), and you grind out 6 sets of 5 reps. The strength and size gains are great, but other cluster approaches such as 3x10, 4x8, or 5x6 work just as well.
     
  19. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    It seems to me that the reasoning here is that volume will overcome RBE, which anyone who has trained using any HIT variant or one bodypart per workout will attest simply doesn't build muscle beyond 'beginner' gains.

    85% of 5RM is ballpark ~8RM, ~ 75-78% of 1RM. Now that's great for preventing over-training, but your recruitment levels aren't going to be fantastic (although with 6 sets you're definitely running a good chance of being covered). Lets say you are, and you're getting near-max/max recruitment, personally there's still a great deal of skepticism regarding the load.

    Overcoming RBE has almost always been a question of load (as the explanatory pages on the HST site could spell out, if HST_Rihad wants a Bryan-discussion to refer to). It seems to be that 6x5 or 30 reps or 60 reps etc (however we choose to categorise it) is simply a way of contending that an increase in volume will overcome RBE rather than an increase of load. It's pretty much the opposite of everything that is discussed here, of a training program like 5x5 (which is about load first, volume to consolidate strength gains and facilitate a corresponding increase in muscle mass).

    I'm not contending that volume is irrelevant. If it was, we'd all walk into the gym, do 3 or 4 singles after a warm-up and leave. This isn't the case ofc, and it matters, but it's certainly not as important as load. If anything, I'd say volume is a function of load; something that should be determined after identifying & planning load progression, analogous to a calculus equation etc. But load is the stimulus that builds muscle.
     
  20. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Nice to hear that from you :) It took me 2 years to come up with that idea.
    There's definitely no need to overdo with too much weight and be forced to limit volume.
    Although I won't be trying 6x5 at this point... 3x5 with 3 min rest will be enough for now.
     

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