Cutting with HST

The premise is absurdly simple. It's still fatally flawed, but absurdly simple none-the-less.

Getting from bf 10% to bf 7% ... now that's complicated. CBL as a premise is extraordinary simple - just a bastardised mix of LG's IF and UD 2.0.


I don't think you're in a deficit, I also think you're having newbie gains. You absolutely have not tapped those prior to now based on the data you've provided.

I'm also 6'1, and I clock in right now at around 118kg, and bf 21% as of yesterday. I can't imagine how small 71kg (155lb) is at my height.
 
mickc1965 said:
@Totentanz / @Jester,

Do you not think that the John Kiefer's 'CBL' or Borge Fagerli's Bioryhthm diets can work?

I have been currently maintaining weight (+/- 0.5lb per week) at an average daily calorie intake of 3128 (3095 after any meaningful walking done) for the last 7 weeks at a body weight of circa 178 lbs (calipers give me 8% body fat but would say nearer 12% based on Built Lean images) giving me a multiple of 17.5 per lb of body weight which in theory should be a bulk.

Before you mention it I am extremely anal and all food is weighed even to the point where the two tins of tuna I have are drained through a potato ricer to remove as much of the water as possible (which means the label that says drained weight = 112g is incorrect as it is actually around 75g per tin) and everything is logged (including alcohol, black coffee etc) on MyFitnessPal.

For clarification I do not follow these diets to the letter (i.e. no breakfast / no backloading on non training days / eat ice cream, cherry turnovers etc (John Keifer)) but what I do is eat proteins / fats during the day restricting carbs to around 30g (carbs in protein drink, sauces etc) then eat the remainder of my carbs (on average another 200g or so) in the evening / post workout. Average macros are 31% (242g) carbs, 44% (345g) protein and 25% (86g) fat and typically I eat around 1400 calories during the day with 1700 or so post workout / evening.

So what I am doing is following a principal of eating carbs later in the day which is more like Biorhythm than CBL (eat what you want post workout, NO!!) which seems to be working for me (never really hungry and probably would struggle to eat any more) or it could just be training full body 5 /6 days a week allows significantly more food to be consumed at maintenance levels and has nothing to do with diets.
Click to expand...

I've tried Borge's biorhythm diet and it worked while in a deficit. I've also tried carb cycling and it works in a deficit.

Basically, anything works in a deficit.

If I had to choose just one diet, I would just the rapid fat loss diet. Why diet for months and months when you can do a few cycles of RFL and be done with it?
 
Jester said:
The premise is absurdly simple. It's still fatally flawed, but absurdly simple none-the-less.

Getting from bf 10% to bf 7% ... now that's complicated. CBL as a premise is extraordinary simple - just a bastardised mix of LG's IF and UD 2.0.


I don't think you're in a deficit, I also think you're having newbie gains. You absolutely have not tapped those prior to now based on the data you've provided.

I'm also 6'1, and I clock in right now at around 118kg, and bf 21% as of yesterday. I can't imagine how small 71kg (155lb) is at my height.
Click to expand...

Want to see what that weight looks like at that height? Okay, so maybe I'm actually 6'2 ish. And I might have been a little closer to 140 in this picture. I had an eight pack, but we all know that abs on a skinny dude are like tits on a fat chick. Would I ever go back to that size because chicks think big guys are icky? Hell no.
 

Attachments

  • goaway.jpg
    goaway.jpg
    176.5 KB · Views: 17
21%!? That's over 50lbs of fat! Eek... I'll never go that high. Sorry...
Newbie gains... Lol. I have busted my ass for what I have right now! Lol. To me, Newbie gains are what you see when you start lifting for the very first time.... Ever! 1st 4 or 5 months growth... 8 months in you're probably plateauing and not going anywhere...
That was me... Poor nutrition, little strength gains, injury, lack of motivation at times... 3 years later, I finally feel I'm making legitimate progress (over the last 4 months or so), in muscle mass and fat loss.
IF apparently works and is widely acknowledged, as does UD 2.0...whats wrong with taking what works from both and coming up with something better? We wouldn't have HST if there wasn't constantly new knowledge and experience along the way, no..?

If you think I'm losing fat because of genetics or because I'm a newb or anything else, you're wrong. Even when I was young (pre-pube) I always had a noticeable, abnormal layer of belly fat lol. And into adulthood, the same...
I cut once with low carb and got to see my abs for the first time... And now I'm there again, better than ever and its not torture. :)
I'll stick with what works for me for now...
So how can I get my bench up into the 200's where it belongs?? :)
 
If you plateaued after 8 months of lifting, you weren't lifting/eating right. My first year of lifting, I went from around 140-150 to about 185 lbs, that was my newbie gains. I got up to about 12% bodyfat from around 6% or so when I started. That's what newbie gains will look like. If you haven't achieved that scope of lean mass gain, then you haven't gotten all your newbie gains yet. And I never stopped growing either. After cut back down to 8% or so and resumed bulking, I kept growing. Because HST, that's why. And because I knew that if I wanted to make a dramatic change to my body, I had to look at the long term view and stop flipping out when I gained an extra 500 grams of bodyfat a few weeks into my bulk.

You have to get over this fear of temporary fat gain if you ever want to make progress. I only ever bulked higher than 15% twice, the first time to get to 230 lbs bodyweight for the first time, the second time when I was shooting for 260. That second time was also the time I first broke 600 lbs for my deadlift and finally was able to squat more than four plates a side. Funny thing, at that hugely heavy weight, I was getting tons of attention from women too, because as I was stating earlier, they don't generally care about a man's body so much as his personality.

So if you want to get your bench up into the 200s, then you need to stop eating like a sparrow and embrace greatness. Stop being anorexic level paranoid about your bodyfat or you'll just keep spinning your wheels for the rest of your life.
 
Ugh! I hear ya man...
I probably didn't really know what I was doing in the beginning besides knowing that I continually had to be lifting more weight. ..and not even 8 months in, I wasn't going anywhere...I wasn't getting enough protein for sure, and definitely wasn't bulking...buy I was eating more than a sparrow. Lol.
Then I did that workout video shit ...name eludes me at the moment...and got ripped, looked good for my size...and then discovered HST. Been learning something new every day since, thanks to guys like you and forums like this.
Newb or not, I would never see 30 or 35lbs growth in one year unless 32.8lbs of that was fat!
I was up to 180 plus when I quit smoking the last time, but that was all outta shape fat. I swore I'd never get like that again!
 
charr said:
I must admit I don't change my carb values like he says. It's mainly the intermittent fasting that I take from it. What I like about fasting is that it freed me from believing that I had to eat 6 meals a day with protein every three hours in order to build muscle. Eating and training has been a lot simpler since.
Click to expand...
Chris I am not knocking IF as it clearly works for a lot of people but in your own words you believe that you gain more fat than muscle so maybe it is not working for you!
 
Hi Mick.

I have tried both ways though and gained fat just the same I think. I mainly do IF for convenience. Thats my only reason really.

Do you think that doing IF can cause more fat gain than eating the normal way? All calories being the same?
 
No I don't think it does I was just saying that maybe IF is not the best method for you, but as you say if your macros are the same then it shouldn't make a difference.

Maybe take Totentanz advice and go down the RFL route, harder to do but results are quicker etc.
 
already got it.

The question how much muscle and strength do you lose on it. It talks about losing 4 - 7 pounds of fat in 2 weeks yet 10 to 20 pounds of weight. Is RFL geared towards bodybuilders?

Reading on I don't think it is for me. I haven't got the will power to only take 600 to 800 cals per day. It sounds dangerous and I already have a small heart problem.
 
Last edited:
Tote thanks for sharing the origin pic, also thanks for the RFL suggestion, I'm like 1/3 of the way through and I've learned a ton.
 
Last edited:
wungun said:
21%!? That's over 50lbs of fat! Eek... I'll never go that high. Sorry...
Newbie gains... Lol. I have busted my ass for what I have right now! Lol. To me, Newbie gains are what you see when you start lifting for the very first time.... Ever! 1st 4 or 5 months growth... 8 months in you're probably plateauing and not going anywhere...
That was me... Poor nutrition, little strength gains, injury, lack of motivation at times... 3 years later, I finally feel I'm making legitimate progress (over the last 4 months or so), in muscle mass and fat loss.
IF apparently works and is widely acknowledged, as does UD 2.0...whats wrong with taking what works from both and coming up with something better? We wouldn't have HST if there wasn't constantly new knowledge and experience along the way, no..?

If you think I'm losing fat because of genetics or because I'm a newb or anything else, you're wrong. Even when I was young (pre-pube) I always had a noticeable, abnormal layer of belly fat lol. And into adulthood, the same...
I cut once with low carb and got to see my abs for the first time... And now I'm there again, better than ever and its not torture. :)
I'll stick with what works for me for now...
So how can I get my bench up into the 200's where it belongs?? :)
Click to expand...

a) Who cares? Fat is easy to lose if you ever need to for aesthetic or health reasons. Shit, I'm carrying 90-odd kg's of LBM. Really couldn't give a damn about 20-25kgs of fat - easy to gain, easy to lose. And again ... you are still in newbie-gains territory. They're just waiting there to be claimed whenever you're ready to eat and lift appropriately.

wungun said:
Ugh! I hear ya man...
Click to expand...

If you "hear" @Totentanz, why are doing the complete opposite of everything he's suggesting?

adpowah said:
It's only a google away...
Click to expand...

This.

charr said:
already got it.

The question how much muscle and strength do you lose on it. It talks about losing 4 - 7 pounds of fat in 2 weeks yet 10 to 20 pounds of weight. Is RFL geared towards bodybuilders?

Reading on I don't think it is for me. I haven't got the will power to only take 600 to 800 cals per day. It sounds dangerous and I already have a small heart problem.
Click to expand...

I'm 3 weeks through (just about) and have lost about 7kg. Obviously the first 3 of that (or so) is water and glycogen, salts etc. Dropped 1.5 sizes on gym belt, 2 inches on the waist. My absolute strength levels haven't budged other than bench (I have less fat, which means I bench worse. This goes for every person that ever lived, however my dip strength hasn't shifted). I just hit a PR on deadlift, leaping 15kg over the cut so far. I've unintentionally reduced total volume - life stuff interrupted a lot of my 2nd sessions this past fortnight).

Please go back and watch the YouTube link I posted a page or so back.

Your heart problems are almost certainly going to reduced on a caloric deficit.

adpowah said:
Tote thanks for sharing the origin pic, also thanks for the RFL suggestion, I'm like 1/3 of the way through and I've learned a ton.
Click to expand...

It's absolutely the best way to cut for anyone natural and looking to preserve their muscle mass.
 
Jester. I have an arythmia problem. I don't think reduced calories will help it.

I weighed myself today and I'm disappointed to see that my weight still hasn't moved. I'm busting my ass and being totally strict on my diet. I don't understand how at my weight and height I can't lose weight on 2000 cals a day. I've lost all the strength I gained on my bulk.

According to every calculation formula I have used I am well below maintenance calories. What gives?
 
charr said:
Jester. I have an arythmia problem. I don't think reduced calories will help it.

I weighed myself today and I'm disappointed to see that my weight still hasn't moved. I'm busting my ass and being totally strict on my diet. I don't understand how at my weight and height I can't lose weight on 2000 cals a day. I've lost all strengh I gained on my bulk.

According to every calculation formula I have used I am well below maintenance calories. What gives?
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you need to get your testosterone checked.

We can spend all day wanking about what-ifs but if you are being truthful about everything and you are somehow not losing weight still, then obviously you have a medical issue. Go get checked out before worrying about it any further.
 
OK. Totentanz. I'll get booked into that this week. I assume I can get it done at the doctors. I know they check everything else thyroid etc because I've had it done. I'll have to ask.

Question though. If I had low testosterone. Would I gain strength like I did on my bulk?
 
Yes, you can still gain strength with low T levels. That's why women can become strong. They have low T levels but they can still build muscle and gain strength, just not usually as effectively as a male with normal T levels. You would also lose the strength more quickly when you stop eating enough. It also makes muscle retention on a cut much more difficult.

I would check online reviews if you can to make sure the endo you got your levels checked with is reputable. Some will say your thyroid levels are good even when they are at one of the extreme ends of the "normal" range. Same thing with testosterone. You could be almost rock bottom for a natural, but still in the "good" range, when it is obviously better to be near the middle of the healthy range.

Since everything doesn't seem to be working for you, getting all your hormones checked and making sure they are in a healthy range really is the next step. I would get the actual numbers for everything from your doctor and get online to compare them to what people online say are the best places to be. A lot of doctors are well behind the times when it comes to healthy hormone levels.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top