How Much Omega 3?

I read somewhere that plant based estrogens are similar to the estrogen our bodies produce naturally, only weaker. Upon ingestion, they actually compete with our indigenous E when binding to estrogen receptors. At least in theory, this should result in the weaker estrogen 'replacing' the more potent natural E, and mimicking some of its properties, only not as effectively. Again, in theory this would be good, since you'd actually be getting the benefits of lowered estrogen levels/activity.

Don't know how much validity there is to all that, but the article sounded legitimate enough, and it was fully referenced and everything.

I'll have to look into that lemon flavored fish oil. I'll have to take it and learn to like it, too, once I start my first UD2 cycle. Lyle MacDonald says it is a mandatory supplement for UD2 (for whatever reason).
 
re. fish oil and taste - you can also get lemon flavoured oil in capsules (I use MorEPA capsules). That way, you don't generally taste it at all - and, if you do get what would have been a fishy burp, it's lemony instead.

I guess another option, if you really don't like fish oil, is to eat fish? Assuming you can learn to like oily fish, of course...
 
LBH,  I see you mentioned in the test thread that you thought you were in the 12-15% body fat range.  MacDonald states that the UD 2.0 diet is for folks already at a fairly low level trying to get to the sub-10% range. If you are reading MacDonald's stuff I presume you are also aware of his comments regarding testosterone production and low body fat numbers.  If you are just going down to 10% or so, it should be no problem.  But the UD 2.0 diet is apparently capable of getting you well below 10% body fat, and super low numbers can inhibit test production.

Oh, did the search and soy does appear to reduce PSA levels UCDavis on Soy
 
Oily fish is good. I eat some smoked salmon every now and then. Fish oil capsules would also be great, but they tend to be quite a bit more expensive than just plain fish oil. Maybe I'll invest in them anyway at some point. I should order them in bulk from the U.S, since we don't have any decent nutrition stores with reasonable prices up here. They sell the same stuff you have in the States, but at three times the price, at least as far as supplements other than your basic carb and protein powders are concerned.

Ruthenian, right you are. But as a matter of fact, I'm aiming for 10% max (or should I say min). I wouldn't even want to go lower than that. In fact, I'll probably be willing to settle for 10-11%.

The thing is, my bodyfat setpoint seems to be very stubbornly stuck at around the 13% minimum mark. I can diet down to that level with conventional methods, but once I get there, I pretty much hit a brick wall. I didn't really make the connection back then, but last summer when I was on a cutter, I got all the classic symptoms of very low T when I tried to just cut my calories lower and increase the amount of cardio I was doing. I never got below 13%, instead ending up losing 22 pounds off my bench press (which hasn't come back yet, and it's been half a year). I probably lost quite a bit of muscle as well.

What can I say.. shitty genetics. I basically have no other choice but to opt for something drastic, such as UD2, if I want to see all of my abs, as opposed to just the upper two (which I've always settled for up to now).

I've never really been a fat guy, but I've never been ripped, either. I'm hoping UD2 will be my ticket to getting there. Oh yeah, and my definition of ripped is 10-12% BF. I can't even imagine what it would be like to go lower than that.
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re. fish/supplements - I get fish oil my capsules (and whey protein) in bulk, as it is much cheaper. I use a company based in the channel islands (minimal tax) but who's the best deal depends where you live...

I'd rather take relatively little fish oil and eat fish every couple of days (mackeral, herring, tinned sardines etc.) - would rather spend the cash on this instead of taking extra supplements. I understand people often don't want to do this, though. Anyway, good luck with finding an oil you can tolerate
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In theory, in an adult man, the relatively weak estrogenic compounds from soy will compete with real estrogen with binding to the receptor site. Meaning that it is actually an competitive inhibitor to estrogen.

In kids, where the relative estrogen content is very low, the addition of large quantities (ie their whole diet) from soy based liquids can potentially provide a large dose of phytoestrogens.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Jan. 21 2007,02:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In theory, in an adult man, the relatively weak estrogenic compounds from soy will compete with real estrogen with binding to the receptor site.  Meaning that it is actually an competitive inhibitor to estrogen.

In kids, where the relative estrogen content is very low, the addition of large quantities (ie their whole diet) from soy based liquids can potentially provide a large dose of phytoestrogens.</div>
Are you saying that &quot;in theory&quot; it would be a good thing for an adult male to include &quot;some&quot; soy based foods or protein in their diet if they are trying to add LBM?

Are there any studies on this published anywhere?
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jan. 22 2007,07:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What about transcription?Is it safe to ignore that possible effect of estrogen binding, be it even plant estrogen?</div>
You realise men have estrogen floating around in their bodies? that are waaaay more powerful than anything from a plant?

and that estrogen will bind to receptors
 
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(Bulldog @ Jan. 22 2007,04:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Are you saying that &quot;in theory&quot; it would be a good thing for an adult male to include &quot;some&quot; soy based foods or protein in their diet if they are trying to add LBM?

Are there any studies on this published anywhere?</div>
nope and nope
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You realise men have estrogen floating around in their bodies? that are waaaay more powerful than anything from a plant?</div>

Certainly, I wasn`t arguing plant estrogen potency, I was merely questioning wether or not it is desirable to get even more estrogen into the system, be it even a weaker estrogen.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Jan. 22 2007,02:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Bulldog @ Jan. 22 2007,04:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Are you saying that &quot;in theory&quot; it would be a good thing for an adult male to include &quot;some&quot; soy based foods or protein in their diet if they are trying to add LBM?

Are there any studies on this published anywhere?</div>
nope and nope</div>
Can you elaborate on your first &quot;nope&quot;?

If plant Estrogen's are weaker than your natural Estrogen's and ingesting them would cause them to compete with the natural Estrogen's by binding to receptors wouldn't they act similar to a pharmaceutical Anti-E but to a lesser degree?

It seems like this would be the case but please explain if I'm way off base here.
 
Competitive binding is good. Competitive binding with something that may activate transcription(note the may, I`m not certain studies have been conducted as to the effect of plant estrogens in adult males) is not that good, not good at all in fact(IMHO).
 
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by &quot;transcription&quot;.  What exactally does it mean in regards to hormone binding?
 
Transcription is the process by which genes are expressed using the DNA &quot;blueprint&quot; as a template for the eventual construction of a specific protein and transcription factors control the process of transcription.

The receptors,  are special proteins called transcription factors. The receptors aren`t active until the hormone is bound, but once bound they become active and transcription becomes active as well(there is a catch, it depends on the &quot;strength&quot; of the steroid hormone in cause, that`s why I`m saying that plant estrogens COULD activate transcription).

And you could check out this article:http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459861. Not necessarily gospel, but it aligns itself with the anectodal evidence existing.

By activating transcription of specific genes, hormones (through their receptors) can change the milieu of proteins within cells, and this can lead to major changes in the body such as building muscle or building breast tissue.

Does that clear up my point?
 
A recent t-nation article entitled something like &quot;Soy is still bad protein&quot; has a telling admission near the beginning where they say that they have omited studies on positive benefits, as that has already been well publicized.  In other words, &quot;we will ignore anything that contradicts us.&quot;  The problem is that for every study t-nation cites, I can cite another that contradicts it.  Effects in animal models are also not always predictive of humans.  

Soy and Male Reproductive Health

Soy, PSA and Test

Soy Milk Supplementation

There is even a study that shows increased serum testosterone in rats with soy isoflavone supplementation:  Soy Increases Rat Test

Further, a recent study looked at muscle growth indicators from soy protein compared to whey protein.  My read is that it wasn't quite as effective as the whey, but it was substantial enough to be characterized as &quot;comparable&quot; by the authors. Soy and Whey

Some studies indicate that the heart protective effects may be due to encouragement of NO production -- just like all those vasodilating products they sell to bodybuilders!

That all said, I do believe that excessive amounts have the potential for problems and, even as a vegetarian, I try not to go overboard on the soy.  But moderate amounts should not be a cause for concern and seem to be largely beneficial.  Note that I have not looked at the fetal development issues and folks concerned about that will have to do their own research.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jan. 24 2007,11:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Transcription is the process by which genes are expressed using the DNA &quot;blueprint&quot; as a template for the eventual construction of a specific protein and transcription factors control the process of transcription.

The receptors,  are special proteins called transcription factors. The receptors aren`t active until the hormone is bound, but once bound they become active and transcription becomes active as well(there is a catch, it depends on the &quot;strength&quot; of the steroid hormone in cause, that`s why I`m saying that plant estrogens COULD activate transcription).

And you could check out this article:http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459861. Not necessarily gospel, but it aligns itself with the anectodal evidence existing.

By activating transcription of specific genes, hormones (through their receptors) can change the milieu of proteins within cells, and this can lead to major changes in the body such as building muscle or building breast tissue.

Does that clear up my point?</div>
I see what you are getting at now.
 
Umm, yes, Testosterone are not the most unbiased lot immaginable, and from a business standpoint it would be hard to make an expensive sooper-dooper soy based product as soy is very cheap(ish) so it`s uninteresting to them, because there would be no possibility to say:Get BioTest Splurge, da bestest greatest most incredible thing(read JB or any other author of ours in case you don`t believe us). It`s only three times more expensive than a similar product, but it`s way way better coz we make it.

OTOH, the fact that so much contradictory info exists(is there any topic in bodybuilding where one can or can`t quote studies supporting/contradicting a point at will?
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) brings soy into a gray area as a protein source. Just as you said, in moderate ammounts it probably won`t do a helluva lot of harm, but I`d be steering away from using soy as the main protein source in one`s diet, at least until things clear-out either way.
 
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(etothepii @ Jan. 04 2007,15:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I take 6 per day, 2 with breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Your Omega6, Omega3 ratio should be 1:1. The average American has a 17:1 ratio (so I've read). Chances are, you aren't overdoing it with 6 grams per day.</div>
I had started another thread, but I just noticed this one... Is there any data/studies out there that show optimal O6:03 ratios?
 
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(etothepii @ Jan. 13 2007,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Currently, I eat one omega 3 egg, one table spoon of omega 3 peanut butter, and 6 fish oil caplets per day. Wild game which grazes on grasses, or grass-fed/free range livestock will have higher amounts of omega 3 fat too, if you can access it.</div>
Omega 3 Peanut Butter? Where can I get this?
 
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