HST, Arthur Jones, 20 Rep Squats Oh My!

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(Martin Levac @ Jan. 15 2008,17:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You win. Have fun.</div>
When we learn we all win bro!


Quantum has stated quite eloquently what Ive been

driving at. I suspect that some are angry with me and

consequently will not listen to anything I say. While this

was never an intended outcome Im afraid its true.

Sometimes I get testywhen I cant articulate my

knowledge well enough to convince others, for that I am

truly sorry................

Read this thread in total and use your own mind.

Thanks Quantum

RR
 
Heres a little more research on the subject.

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) - A new study suggests that doing intense interval training for 20 minutes three times a week is just as effective at boosting strength and endurance as five to six hours of jogging or moderate cycling.

&quot;From a muscle perspective, when you do long, slow endurance training, you are only recruiting part of your muscle fibers to do the work,&quot; Gibala said. &quot;In high intensity exercise, you call upon all of your muscle fibers. They respond and adapt.&quot;


Our hormonal system is constantly the 'analyzing our blood' .. looking for changes in O2, CO2, glucose, waste byproducts.

Huge HGH release associated with increased serum levels of lactic acid.

The American Society of Exercise Physiologists, reported at it's 2001 annual conference in Memphis, Tennessee  that six sets of 10 rep-maximum squats raised peak HGH significantly in the control group from 0.1 to 1.0 ug/L.   A 10X increase in that wonderful hormone, HGH!


 Intensity of exercise appears to be the key factor in increasing HGH secretion.

Intense training is the most effective stimulus for HGH secretion.  

An increase in the lactic acid burn in the exercised muscle is a good indicator that you are &quot;pushing it&quot; enough to optimize hormonal secretions.    

These cellular chemical byproducts of exercise are transported systemically by the blood, to cause systemic hormonal changes.



Our body makes internal adjustments to respiration rate, heart rate, vaso dilation &amp; hormonal release in order to adapt to the needs of the exercised muscles .. systemic changes based on the needs of the exercised body part.&quot;

Me again .........

There is also a distinct relation to the blood acid/base profile and releasee of GH. When your doing heavy leg work we put our blood into a disticntly acidic environment, which is due to a lack of oxygen and is dangerous to the body. We breath heavily as a survival instinct and when do we are neutralizing this acid blood with oxygen which produces an alkaline blood response. I should note  Acid is  positively charged and alkaline is negatively charged.

Heres the fun part. When acid and base mix what happens beyond neutralizing? A chemical reaction that results in what? An electric charge. Our bodies are essentially electric machines albiet in a vastly different way than we conventionally think of it. When we consume acid and alkaline foods they react in our system to produce thecharge that flows through the body giving  the life force to our enymes that do all the work in our body like worker ants. This includes system maintenance - fighting disease and regeneration of tissue. It also gives energy to the endocrine system via the exchange of enzymes. In other words the electric charge given by the mixing of acid blood and oxygen results in growth factors being super charged.

So the deeper the oxygen depletion the deeper the acidity, the deeper the breathing the stronger the alkalinity resulting in a huge bioelectrical field that facilitates growth.

Thus the great levels of GH and the acceleration of your metabolism.

Dont ask for research here.

Take from this what you will.

RR
 
Another reason why compounds should be priotity in a workout schedual. Basicly everything I do is compound. I have messed around with other workouts as well.
 
<div>
(redrooster @ Jan. 15 2008,17:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It doesnt matter what you believe, it appears as though youve reaped the benefits.

Your a true believer bro.  Facts arent relevant
smile.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

Keep up the good work!

RR</div>
I am not a 'true believer.'  There are many facets of HST which I openly disagree with and most guys here know it and accept me anyway because I use research and science to discover what I can about hypertrophy.  You barely know me and you are labeling me into a tight, little pigeon-hole.  You just got here to this forum and you are abrasive, inarticulate and behaving trollishly.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Im going to respectully disagree here.

Heavy squating or deadlifting promotes both test and growth hormones systemically. As stated earlier Casey Viators arms grew simply from heavy squating. </div>
This kind of thinking is wrong, Casey did more than squats, plus Casey was on steroids too, so that skews everything.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Additionally physical therapy research has demonstrated that a person with an injured leg need not experience atrophy in the injured leg. If the person does leg excercises such a one legged leg press with their good leg, to a degree that growth hormones are released, the injured leg will grow in some proportion to the excercised one.

I know Ill be asked to show my homework here so Ill try to find the studies.</div>
Please, show us the studies.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But this is the underlying principle of Jones' work and the 20 rep squat routine. The growth mechanism is started by heavy leg and back work. The largest muscle stimulate the growth process most easily and the rest of the body reaps the benefits as well. HST starts with legs first as well, its not an accident.

Both Jones and Vice Gironda , when commenting on an arms routine, said the best way to maximaize arm size is to specialize on the arms alone, but to squat first.

Bottom line is that stimulating the growth process via squats puts the entire body in a better position to grow.  

RR</div>

Do you understand the primary stimulator of hypertrophy is mechanical strain of muscle-fiber?  The strain of muscle cells is what stimulates the growth process, locally, a few muscles strained under load will not grow the whole body, unless the entire body is strained.
 
This is going nowhere. I am using the ignore list before it gets out-of-control like the incident with banned member: John Prophet (that was not fun, well sort of, in a twisted way if you like trolls!)
 
Rooster, I don't think you're a troll, so I'll say in my usual &quot;can't we all just be friends&quot; motif, it will all work out in the end. It's easy to get heated in these things and to misread things in print. I think you mean well enough, just trying to make your point, but are not familiar with the history or intent of this forum.
Not to mention that we all have Trollophobia. We're not Buttbuilding.com over here...
 
&quot;am not a 'true believer.'  There are many facets of HST which I openly disagree with and most guys here know it and accept me anyway because I use research and science to discover what I can about hypertrophy.  You barely know me and you are labeling me into a tight, little pigeon-hole.  You just got here to this forum and you are abrasive, inarticulate and behaving trollishly.&quot;

True believers think their way is the only way. Im still deciding on how to set up my cycle so i dont even have a way yet, which is why Im still researching.

I label you because you react the same way each time, no matter what is presented you lalala over what is being presented and hang on desperatly to your perception of reality.

You completely ignore all the research presented. You pigeon-holed yourself.

I got nothing against you at all and think youve done well with what your doing. Let it go dude.

&quot;This kind of thinking is wrong, Casey did more than squats, plus Casey was on steroids too, so that skews everything.&quot;

Ive looked into this as well. I did have the story skewed. Casey arms had plateaud badly, Jones took him off direct arm work and stressed squating. the corresponding hormonal terrain got his overtrained armsgoing again. Its in his book. this should not be confused with his Colorado experiment where there are conflicting stories as to whether he was on roids.

I ve looked but cannot find the study on leg atrophy. Would itmatter? Ive presented studies here that validate the idea.

&quot;Do you understand the primary stimulator of hypertrophy is mechanical strain of muscle-fiber?  The strain of muscle cells is what stimulates the growth process, locally, a few muscles strained under load will not grow the whole body, unless the entire body is strained. &quot;

Yes I do understand this. This is 101 stuff.


My examples simply point out that there is carry over effect to the rest of the body when the larger muscle groups are stimulated sigificantly. Heavy Squating places nearly the whole body under strain, the CNS  reacts in kind sending out enough growth hormones to fix the entire body if needed, providing proper matrix of nutrients are available.

Again Ive been over this stuff over and over again, you just arent interested in leaving your reality.

Im sorry if you find truth abrasive.

RR
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 15 2008,20:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Rooster, I don't think you're a troll, so I'll say in my usual &quot;can't we all just be friends&quot; motif, it will all work out in the end. It's easy to get heated in these things and to misread things in print. I  think you mean well enough, just trying to make your point, but are not familiar with the history or intent of this forum.
Not to mention that we all have Trollophobia. We're not Buttbuilding.com over here...</div>
A voice of reason.

Points all well taken.

Im not really a forum guy, what is trolling?

And above all, yes lets all be friends
smile.gif


I look forward to posting the routine Ill be starting

and will ask for help on tweaking from HST vets!

Thanks Quad
RR
 
Troll:
Ugly bugger living under bridges isolated from reality seeking to cause disruption and turmoil amongst the pious masses whenever the opportunity comes to slither out and slobber it's nasty drool all over everyone.
 
You might be right Quad. He may have good intentions, but for now he certainly fits the profile of trolls we've had here in the past. Time will tell. I hope you are right, a new contributing member is an asset.

From wikipedia:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.
</div>
 
RR

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I did have the story skewed. Casey arms had plateaud badly, Jones took him off direct arm work and stressed squating. the corresponding hormonal terrain got his overtrained armsgoing again. Its in his book.</div>

So...he was put into SD (for arms that is), I don't know if its true about the AA's but I strongly suspect it is, in which case Scimuscle has a strong point as the AA's skew the results (someone on AA's grows in spite of his training rather than because of it).

My point here is simple, he had plateaud, most likeley because of:

1 - Training to failure (excess CNS strain) maybe even too often.
2 - Doing excess arm work as they had a tendency to train split-wise, so most likely he had an arm day where he &quot;fried his arms&quot;.

Going on SD (for arms in this case) allowed his arms to recover, and re-build tissue, causing some serious growth (it is a well known fenomena that muscles grow while resting, not while being strained, also 101 stuff).

Now lastly, I agree that both Squats and Deadlifts do help release testosterone, albeit not immediatelly but as a result of the strain induced throughout the body, and over time, darn, I am walking proof of that, and no...I have not been to the doctor to verify, but just by the way my libido is second to none, at 41 that is one of the sure signs of test presence IMO.

Something else and very important...I too do not think you are a troll...but some members here will tend to take things a little personal which IMO is not right but nevertheless, this is a nice forum and we do suffer from Trollophobia as it has caused some &quot;sour taste&quot; before and is seriously not welcome.

So...be patient...let's be friends and...lets learn from each other...do be carefull with sientific or pseudo sientific statements (even I have to) without backup as they will be challenged for sure!
wink.gif


BTW - Looking forward to see your log.
biggrin.gif
 
Holy ****. I don't even know where to begin.

What seems to be lost here is that, as far as I know, nobody denied that exercise could create transient changes in hormonal output (GH, test, etc). Attempting to compare these temporary changes to permanent or global levels of these hormones is wildly disanalagous.

Here's a pretty simple request:

Provide research which establishes that these transient changes play a direct, causative role in muscle growth.

That they happen and then we grow does not mean that they are making us grow, since a lot of &quot;things&quot; are happening as a result of training.

I'll assume we all understand the difference between correlation and causation. This assumption might be in vain.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Jan. 15 2008,22:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You might be right Quad. He may have good intentions, but for now he certainly fits the profile of trolls we've had here in the past. Time will tell. I hope you are right, a new contributing member is an asset.</div>
Yeah, he doesn't seem like a troll to me. He is coming by honest, and is curious about the GH effect post-squats. This is simply a scientific debate to get the facts straight.
 
From an outsiders point of view in that I am not a regular contributor here, RR has received a raw deal from a few people. Nothing he has said smells of trolling to me, he just happens to hold a different opinion to others, be it right or wrong.
 
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(mikeynov @ Jan. 16 2008,01:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'll assume we all understand the difference between correlation and causation. This assumption might be in vain.</div>
Correlation and causation, what I am trying to sort through in my statistical analysis of my diet!

wiki link
 
<div>
(mikeynov @ Jan. 16 2008,01:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Holy ****.  I don't even know where to begin.

What seems to be lost here is that, as far as I know, nobody denied that exercise could create transient changes in hormonal output (GH, test, etc).  Attempting to compare these temporary changes to permanent or global levels of these hormones is wildly disanalagous.

Here's a pretty simple request:

Provide research which establishes that these transient changes play a direct, causative role in muscle growth.

That they happen and then we grow does not mean that they are making us grow, since a lot of &quot;things&quot; are happening as a result of training.

I'll assume we all understand the difference between correlation and causation.  This assumption might be in vain.</div>
Bingo.

Short and to the point.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 15 2008,20:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Troll:
Ugly bugger living under bridges isolated from reality seeking to cause disruption and turmoil amongst the pious masses whenever the opportunity comes to slither out and slobber it's nasty drool all over everyone.</div>
Yeah that pictures not me I have red hair.
smile.gif


I think weve covered this ground enough and will will be beating a dead horse here shortly so I should probably stop posting on this thread and work on getting W/O together and start figuring max's.

Ill leave (try anyway) this thread asking you to ponder this question- again.

If two twins do the same HST workout , one uses
steroids the other does not who is bigger and why?

If both are natural lifters and one is female who is bigger and why?

The difference is hormonal terrain.

I might contact Casey Viator for the specifics of his arms situation beyond what was in the book. He likely burned his arms out doing toomuch work with them. He had told me once that his arms were so strong that he had a hard time stimulaing his chest and back with pushing and pulling excercises. So he was absorbing alot of arm stress from that alone. Additionally although Arthur Jones would brow beat him day and night about not using more than one set to failure, he stated that on a regular basis he would leave Nautilus headquarters and go work out at another gym . If Jones had found out he would have been thrown in with the alligators.

So yes his Fausto his arms grew during a &quot;local&quot; SD and hormonal terrain via squating. I find this most interesting as most of the time Ive experienced overtraining its been systemic, a lack of desire to train, or even a strong dread of it with the tradition 20 rep squats.Interesting stuff anyway.

Thanks for being voted not a troll
smile.gif


RR
 
Ooooh, highjack time...
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">He had told me once that his arms were so strong that he had a hard time stimulaing his chest and back with pushing and pulling excercises.</div>
I wonder if that's the reason for my small chest and big Pendlay's? I often do skulls at 130+lbs. and am rowing 315...but my bench has usually been weak until lately. I may need some pec iso's added in, as soon as some of my other questions are answered.
 
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