Testosterone in HST vs Traditional?

Just to add something:if someone equated what I said about LBM wastage with withering into nothingness, that was not what I meant. You can sit around and wank, and it`ll take a while(relatively) before you shrink significantly. What I meant was that the 15s as set-up by the basic routine are suboptimal for the more advanced lifter-there are better ways to handle in-between cycle breaks. Anyway, this is OT.
 
What's a traditional routine? You mean what 99% of people do when they always lift their maximum and don't make any significant strength increases.

I'm pretty sure if you look at what successful strength trainers did in the past (especially pre 1960s, i.e. when there were no streroids) you'd find that they did not just max out 2 or 3 times a week. I'm pretty sure if you delved into it that you'd find that intensity was ramped up until plateua, deload and then repeat.

Just because the majority of "training advice" through mainstream media is bad, don't assume this equates to traditional.

HST is a fine program (and I'm really glad I tried it) but it is not revolutionary.
 
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(cxw @ Jul. 11 2007,23:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What's a traditional routine? You mean what 99% of people do when they always lift their maximum and don't make any significant strength increases.

I'm pretty sure if you look at what successful strength trainers did in the past (especially pre 1960s, i.e. when there were no streroids) you'd find that they did not just max out 2 or 3 times a week. I'm pretty sure if you delved into it that you'd find that intensity was ramped up until plateua, deload and then repeat.

Just because the majority of &quot;training advice&quot; through mainstream media is bad, don't assume this equates to traditional.

HST is a fine program (and I'm really glad I tried it) but it is not revolutionary.</div>
Agreed.
 
Slaps: don't forget that you've been cutting for uh, like forever, so of course the 15's can be wasting for you. It's been recommended by many here to just hit the tens and fives or a strength program for cutting, which you know; you've been doing it.

The jammer didn't say wether or not he was on bulk or cut, but as we know, it is pertinent. Still, some of these guys don't lose in the 15's regardless. Good material for a study?
 
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(quadancer @ Jul. 11 2007,19:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Slaps: don't forget that you've been cutting for uh, like forever, so of course the 15's can be wasting for you. It's been recommended by many here to just hit the tens and fives or a strength program for cutting, which you know; you've been doing it.

The jammer didn't say wether or not he was on bulk or cut, but as we know, it is pertinent. Still, some of these guys don't lose in the 15's regardless. Good material for a study?</div>
forever? Wow, has it been that long??? Yeah, it kinda feels like that, don't it
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Anhooo, I'm actually on maintenance now, if you can believe it....treated myself to ice cream for the first time this summer a couple days ago. mmmmmmmm, peanut butter choco chip (insert drool here!)

I guess my gripe with hst is that, even when bulking, dedicating potentially 1/3 of your routine to 15 reps seems counterproductive. If the five set weeks become extended, and the 15 reps becomes 1/4 or less of the total routine, its negative impact is lessened, and potentially eliminated if you consider the joint sparing &amp; psychological effects.

As far as the testosterone &amp; GH ramifications of the 15s, dammed if I know. I just know I feel more like an alpha male pushing out singles
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And disregard what I`ve said, it was due to the heat. The 15s are the roxxorz.</div>

Now I feel like an ass. Thanks.
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Who's John Steel? Sounds like a cheesy pron star name. Apparently he's good at stuffing inboxes at least?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
The jammer didn't say wether or not he was on bulk or cut, but as we know, it is pertinent. Still, some of these guys don't lose in the 15's regardless. Good material for a study? </div>

Maybe its because I'm such a fat ass (ok, this is probably a guarantee), but I don't have any problems with losing muscle during the 15s and cutting. Of course, I don't think my body is real concerned with starving and won't be for quite some time. Its also not so much like cutting as shoveling off pounds of lard. LOL.

The 15s really kick my ass, even on the lightest weights. I'm most at home with the 5s, personally. For some reason though, my arms respond well to higher reps, even after my compounds.
 
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(Slapshotz @ Jul. 12 2007,03:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Jul. 11 2007,19:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Slaps: don't forget that you've been cutting for uh, like forever, so of course the 15's can be wasting for you. It's been recommended by many here to just hit the tens and fives or a strength program for cutting, which you know; you've been doing it.

The jammer didn't say wether or not he was on bulk or cut, but as we know, it is pertinent. Still, some of these guys don't lose in the 15's regardless. Good material for a study?</div>
forever? Wow, has it been that long??? Yeah, it kinda feels like that, don't it
laugh.gif


Anhooo, I'm actually on maintenance now, if you can believe it....treated myself to ice cream for the first time this summer a couple days ago. mmmmmmmm, peanut butter choco chip (insert drool here!)

I guess my gripe with hst is that, even when bulking, dedicating potentially 1/3 of your routine to 15 reps seems counterproductive. If the five set weeks become extended, and the 15 reps becomes 1/4 or less of the total routine, its negative impact is lessened, and potentially eliminated if you consider the joint sparing &amp; psychological effects.

As far as the testosterone &amp; GH ramifications of the 15s, dammed if I know. I just know I feel more like an alpha male pushing out singles
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I`d like to extend my burning hatred to you. I`m out of icecream, and am too lazy to get some when I get back from work.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now I feel like an ass. Thanks.     Who's John Steel?</div>

Ahhhh... he, who we do not speak his name.  You don't want to know.  
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 11 2007,13:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to add something:if someone equated what I said about LBM wastage with withering into nothingness, that was not what I meant. You can sit around and wank, and it`ll take a while(relatively) before you shrink significantly. What I meant was that the 15s as set-up by the basic routine are suboptimal for the more advanced lifter-there are better ways to handle in-between cycle breaks. Anyway, this is OT.</div>
imo and experience the 15's are in noway a stop gap or suboptimal method of training,as stated earlier gains can be made at high reps especially the different fibre types,which themsevles need varied rep ranges to be stimulated properly.

moreover,at the moment im using progressive load and high to low reps as part of a standard split.try doing 15 reps with 3 sets of 200kg deads and tell me they arent productive
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(lcars @ Jul. 12 2007,19:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 11 2007,13:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to add something:if someone equated what I said about LBM wastage with withering into nothingness, that was not what I meant. You can sit around and wank, and it`ll take a while(relatively) before you shrink significantly. What I meant was that the 15s as set-up by the basic routine are suboptimal for the more advanced lifter-there are better ways to handle in-between cycle breaks. Anyway, this is OT.</div>
imo and experience the 15's are in noway a stop gap or suboptimal method of training,as stated earlier gains can be made at high reps especially the different fibre types,which themsevles need varied rep ranges to be stimulated properly.

moreover,at the moment im using progressive load and high to low reps as part of a standard split.try doing 15 reps with 3 sets of 200kg deads and tell me they arent productive
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I think it`s wonderful that high reps work for you. I also think it`s not a great idea to extend personal experience to everyone, and state it as a general rule. It would be great to think what are the confounding factors that could lead to higher-reps being more productive for legs. Hint:form of execution. Happen to have any solid research that points to having to use different rep ranges for different fiber types?Because I sure as heck don't, and, if anything, one can't train according to fiber type/distribution in any significant extent.

But I really don't want to argue about this, because generally this is the point where ppl become uber-defensive and inches gained start to be flung around-it`s an argument that's both unnecessary and irrelevant. Everyone do as their heart desires, and have icecream in the process.
 
Make mine a mint choc chip.... with extra choc  
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I love the 15s myself. Ilove the pump and it gets me back to where I was before SD.
J
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MGD wrote:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But I really don't want to argue about this, because generally this is the point where ppl become uber-defensive and inches gained start to be flung around-it`s an argument that's both unnecessary and irrelevant. Everyone do as their heart desires, and have icecream in the process.</div>

Hmm...I think we all should have a nice scoop or two...except you, of course, who doth ran out
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I like 15's. Good for joints that ache with years of usage, good for that uber pump you get, and done hard and heavy enough, they do wonders for us non-cardiolics! (puffpuff...)
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Wouldn't diet effect T more than training type?

As far as 15s go, I've dieted, probably -400 calories during the 15s of my current cycle. I'm ramping up calories right now (in the 10s), and will be eating +400 (or so) during week 2 of the 10s through the post 5s. I'll do the same next cycle too. My log will track the changes in body composition. As it stands right now, I finally dipped below 10% bodyfat, and my strength is intact.

I hope to lose bodyfat (and slight amount of muscle) then gain muscle(and a slight amount of fat) every cycle for a while until I am 10 lbs heavier, and still under 10% body fat. Wish me luck!
 
15s are sweet misery! I have learned to love the pain, but it is nearly unbearable with deadlifts. I agree with quad, its great for conditioning if you dont do cardio.
 
You could shorten the rep range with the deads at the same time I'd say. While in the 15's, your deads cycle could go something like 12, 8, 5, 3...? 11, 9, 6, or...
Same principle; minor tweaks. I've done different reps for squats before too.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 12 2007,15:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(lcars @ Jul. 12 2007,19:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 11 2007,13:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to add something:if someone equated what I said about LBM wastage with withering into nothingness, that was not what I meant. You can sit around and wank, and it`ll take a while(relatively) before you shrink significantly. What I meant was that the 15s as set-up by the basic routine are suboptimal for the more advanced lifter-there are better ways to handle in-between cycle breaks. Anyway, this is OT.</div>
imo and experience the 15's are in noway a stop gap or suboptimal method of training,as stated earlier gains can be made at high reps especially the different fibre types,which themsevles need varied rep ranges to be stimulated properly.

moreover,at the moment im using progressive load and high to low reps as part of a standard split.try doing 15 reps with 3 sets of 200kg deads and tell me they arent productive
biggrin.gif
</div>
I think it`s wonderful that high reps work for you. I also think it`s not a great idea to extend personal experience to everyone, and state it as a general rule. It would be great to think what are the confounding factors that could lead to higher-reps being more productive for legs. Hint:form of execution. Happen to have any solid research that points to having to use different rep ranges for different fiber types?Because I sure as heck don't, and, if anything, one can't train according to fiber type/distribution in any significant extent.

But I really don't want to argue about this, because generally this is the point where ppl become uber-defensive and inches gained start to be flung around-it`s an argument that's both unnecessary and irrelevant. Everyone do as their heart desires, and have icecream in the process.</div>
first off,unless i become a parrot like many people on many boards quoting things theyve,heard which is unlikley,i have to rely on my experience as it is what &quot;i know works for me&quot;.

secondly,i dont remember stating anything as a rule.

i dont use 15's often anymore except for certain exercises,i mean my calves wont develope at all from 5 reps i have to hit 10 minimum to even feel i worked them.

the fact is everyone has to put forward their experiences otherwise whats the point discussing anything?

i have to agree i dont want to argue with anyone either,but i wasnt the one who came into the thread with a bold comment and then later back tracked.
 
I still do 15s. They are a bit of a break from the heavy stuff and the workouts are short and sweet so I have more time to get on with something else. The second week of 15s is not easy and as I don't like cardio it is my way of not allowing myself to loose all my fitness gained while cutting (when I jogged a fair bit).

I treat 15s as a bit of a blaster session. I don't go slowly as the loads are safe enough to really power away. Also my form can be really good too whereas it tends to get a bit sloppy by the end of 5s.

Re Slapz comment: you can spend your whole year lifting heavy but I very much doubt you will gain any more size than someone who sticks to an HST progression and who includes 15s. In fact you might find that the opposite is true. Don't forget that is what HST is all about - size. You seem to be thinking more in terms of strength which is where your goals lie. We all know HST is not about reps; it's much more to do with load progression. It just happens that if you start a cycle at around 50% of you 1RM you can get a good 15 reps out before failure. There's no point in lowering the number of reps at these loads because otherwise mf recruitment will stay low because fatigue won't build up much. If a cycle is stretched out to 10 weeks or more then less than a fifth of the cycle is spent lifting lighter stuff.

15s have generally been great for helping my injuries heal and specifically for my joint health. As you get older this does seem to become more of an issue; it certainly has in my case.
 
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