Testosterone in HST vs Traditional?

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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,14:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do wish Kraemer(or was it Fleck...one of the bozos, if not both) hadn't popularized the notion that minute increases in GH associated with high-rep limited-rest lactate training had any bearing/were worth considering...</div>
But hey, gotta give these guys credit for their stick to it-ive-ness.

They're whacky bom bom
They're Nutty bom bah
It's Fleck
And Kraemer

In the Morning ta dahhhhhhhhhh
 
I thought we already figured out a long time ago on this site that rep range doesn't matter. Sure rep count matters in context of volume, to an extent... but it's not like your body knows &quot;Hey, we are in the 15s, I better get flushed with lactic acid during each workout.&quot; or anything like that.

And... the idea that you can significantly alter GH, IGF, test or whatever through training will always be dumb. Your body is not going to jack up GH, IGF or test to the levels you'd see through exogenous use of these compounds, ever. You will never see any significant gains caused by increasing your own natural GH, IGF or testosterone from high rep or whatever style of training. Ever.
 
Ye we have discussed, recussed, and abcussed a ba-zillion times and the outcome is always the same.

There are those who take the work of people like Fleck, Kraemer, Goto and others and turn it into something it isn't or simply read more into it than what it is.

I guess it's what keeps some sites going or rags selling but in the end the effects seen are exactly what they are, transient in nature, limited in magnitude, secondary to the primary stimulus, and as you just said, never ever ever will the effects be anything like what is seen with larger quantities of exogenous influences.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but it's not like your body knows &quot;Hey, we are in the 15s, I better get flushed with lactic acid during each workout.&quot; or anything like that.</div>

LOL that one definitely made me laugh.  
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(Totentanz @ Jul. 20 2007,17:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I thought we already figured out a long time ago on this site that rep range doesn't matter. Sure rep count matters in context of volume, to an extent... but it's not like your body knows &quot;Hey, we are in the 15s, I better get flushed with lactic acid during each workout.&quot; or anything like that.

And... the idea that you can significantly alter GH, IGF, test or whatever through training will always be dumb. Your body is not going to jack up GH, IGF or test to the levels you'd see through exogenous use of these compounds, ever. You will never see any significant gains caused by increasing your own natural GH, IGF or testosterone from high rep or whatever style of training. Ever.</div>
But coach Poliquin says....dude, you're mean, why'd ya have to crush my dreams of greatness through lactate management?Bah
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 20 2007,12:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">why'd ya have to crush my dreams of greatness through lactate management?</div>
Agggh! I envision a gym full of nursing mothers, struggling through their 15's...
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,14:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
lcars said:
at the end of the day the more effort you put in,the better the results will be irrespective of wether you can lift 50k for 15 or 100k for 15,and effort doesnt mean to failure.

the results will obviously depend on genetic factors,diet and rest.but they will be similar.

unfortunately none of this leads to a big/noticable increase in testosterone,but at the higher rep ranges squats for example do boost gh and igf levels,which are almost as important.

hey got us back on track there fausto  :


You sure about that, sport?Is it something relevant/significant, ]or merely a transient increase that affects pretty much nothing?</div>
if you compare the raise in test,gh and igf and assess  thr physiological effects they have on the body it is negligible,but are they increased the answer is yes.

did i get to where iam now, by using high reps and waiting for my igf and gh levels to spike no!

one thing i can garantee though,if you put more effort into your training and put less condesending remarks in your posts,we would all be happy.
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people can rant on about what works and what doesnt work,what raises what and so on,one thing i can say is that the proof is in the pudding baby
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no matter how eloquently one states there arguements,they dont mean jack when they aint got the results to back it up.
 
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(lcars @ Jul. 20 2007,14:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">no matter how eloquently one states there arguements,they dont mean jack when they aint got the results to back it up.</div>
Which is what exactly what I'm saying. Fleck and Kraemer, and others, have looked at this for years now with the hope that the magic elixir of little rest, high volumes will produce such a hormonal environment that one can't do anything but grow. Unfortunately through all their wonderous papers on the subject, not to mention all their pupils and fellow researchers, they have failed to show results.

Don't take this as I'm not advocating a use for high reps, low rest. I'm merely pointing out that the hormonal impact is not the primary messenging system involved and minor, brief fluctuations in these hormones, in the grand scheme of things, is not as important as other more crucial factors.

Dan

P.S. If aimed at me, I choose to write the way I do because I don't feel writing a bunch of sarcasm or becoming invovled in &quot;flame throwing&quot; suits the level of discussion primarily seen on this forum.

But that doesn't mean I won't spew off the occasional poem, short story, song or radio commercial
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without actually conducting experiments myself to show the exact effects and amounts of hormones produced,i have to go on what studies have shown.ive read a few,and found all of them to be conflicting.i certainley dont think the levels we speak of are that important,but i do think they provide an environment for growth(as you said).

and no it wasnt directed at you dan,as im sure you do have the results to back it up
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.it was a general statement not aimed at anybody in particular.

i also like the tone of this board,but feel a few of the opening posts on this thread were condescending and over the top.i felt i had to retort,especially when all the facts arent accurate.at the end of the day we are here to help one another,offer our experiences and advice.this is the reason i stuck around,as we do have some decent characters on here.i just dont like smart asses.



maybe we should put this post to bed.
 
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(lcars @ Jul. 20 2007,21:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,14:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
lcars said:
at the end of the day the more effort you put in,the better the results will be irrespective of wether you can lift 50k for 15 or 100k for 15,and effort doesnt mean to failure.

the results will obviously depend on genetic factors,diet and rest.but they will be similar.

unfortunately none of this leads to a big/noticable increase in testosterone,but at the higher rep ranges squats for example do boost gh and igf levels,which are almost as important.

hey got us back on track there fausto :


You sure about that, sport?Is it something relevant/significant, ]or merely a transient increase that affects pretty much nothing?</div>
if you compare the raise in test,gh and igf and assess thr physiological effects they have on the body it is negligible,but are they increased the answer is yes.

did i get to where iam now, by using high reps and waiting for my igf and gh levels to spike no!

one thing i can garantee though,if you put more effort into your training and put less condesending remarks in your posts,we would all be happy.</div>
Sure thing, bro. Got any tips?I'm struggling with the gunz, can't crack the magical 13&quot; barrier...surely you can help?Thanks, much appreciated!
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 20 2007,17:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sure thing, bro. Got any tips?I'm struggling with the gunz, can't crack the magical 13&quot; barrier...surely you can help?Thanks, much appreciated!</div>
Have you tried a lot of high rep, low rest curls in the squat rack...?
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(TunnelRat @ Jul. 20 2007,16:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 20 2007,17:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sure thing, bro. Got any tips?I'm struggling with the gunz, can't crack the magical 13&quot; barrier...surely you can help?Thanks, much appreciated!</div>
Have you tried a lot of high rep, low rest curls in the squat rack...?  
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Better still - low rep , high rest - curl the squat rack...
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<div>
(TunnelRat @ Jul. 21 2007,00:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 20 2007,17:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sure thing, bro. Got any tips?I'm struggling with the gunz, can't crack the magical 13&quot; barrier...surely you can help?Thanks, much appreciated!</div>
Have you tried a lot of high rep, low rest curls in the squat rack...?
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Yes. I fear greatness too much to try them again.
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They work all too well. And if I give nasty looks to everyone and roar after each curl, my test&amp;GH go through the roof...I can feel the acromegalia happening. Dunno about that IGF thing...it`s like insulin and insulin will make me fat. But I digress...thanks for the help bros, off to the gym(this board needs more emoticons).
 
Morgoth, no one will ever accuse you of subtlety, that is for certain.

Its better if after you roar you grab your crotch, though.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 20 2007,17:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(lcars @ Jul. 20 2007,21:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,14:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
lcars said:
at the end of the day the more effort you put in,the better the results will be irrespective of wether you can lift 50k for 15 or 100k for 15,and effort doesnt mean to failure.

the results will obviously depend on genetic factors,diet and rest.but they will be similar.

unfortunately none of this leads to a big/noticable increase in testosterone,but at the higher rep ranges squats for example do boost gh and igf levels,which are almost as important.

hey got us back on track there fausto  :


You sure about that, sport?Is it something relevant/significant, ]or merely a transient increase that affects pretty much nothing?</div>
if you compare the raise in test,gh and igf and assess  thr physiological effects they have on the body it is negligible,but are they increased the answer is yes.

did i get to where iam now, by using high reps and waiting for my igf and gh levels to spike no!

one thing i can garantee though,if you put more effort into your training and put less condesending remarks in your posts,we would all be happy.</div>
Sure thing, bro. Got any tips?I'm struggling with the gunz, can't crack the magical 13&quot; barrier...surely you can help?Thanks, much appreciated!</div>

lets clarify a few things as regards to the purpose of this thread and for those who misconstrued what i wrote:

will the (naturally)increased levels of testosterone and gh we get from training give you a huge and ripped body? absolutely not !

do these increases in said hormones create a healthy environment for hypertrophy? yes!

are the high rep ranges better suited for hypertrophy than all others?   absolutely not !

are high reps useful within the frame work of any given training routine and may they lead to some hypertrophy? yes!

@ morgoth,dont be ashamed,theres nothing wrong with 13&quot; arms if you have the bodyfat to match!but obviously theres something lacking when you continually feel the need to belittle people and posture in this way.its far easier to admit that you are wrong or indeed have learnt something from someone than to hide behind a barrage of insults and quips.step up,drop thew attitude and lets learn something.
and that said,i would be glad to help anyone who asks for it.
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As I'd understood it, the high rep, but not necessarily high volume at the same time, would increase mitochondria, which is something noticable, but not as much as cell growth (I can't remember the term), and more so than sarcomere hypertrophy.

I'm insomnial again this morning and was just trying to get my facts straight. Maybe I should drink this coffee before posting, I dunno.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jul. 21 2007,05:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As I'd understood it, the high rep, but not necessarily high volume at the same time, would increase mitochondria, which is something noticable, but not as much as cell growth (I can't remember the term), and more so than sarcomere hypertrophy.

I'm insomnial again this morning and was just trying to get my facts straight. Maybe I should drink this coffee before posting, I dunno.</div>
me too woke up at 530am uk time,cant sleep.

i think youve put forward another good reason not to overlook high reps quad.its like i said they arent the be all and end all,just a useful tool to be used that can yeild some growth if ustilised correctly,depending on the individual and bodyparts trained.
 
<div>
(lcars @ Jul. 21 2007,07:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 20 2007,17:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(lcars @ Jul. 20 2007,21:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,14:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
lcars said:
at the end of the day the more effort you put in,the better the results will be irrespective of wether you can lift 50k for 15 or 100k for 15,and effort doesnt mean to failure.

the results will obviously depend on genetic factors,diet and rest.but they will be similar.

unfortunately none of this leads to a big/noticable increase in testosterone,but at the higher rep ranges squats for example do boost gh and igf levels,which are almost as important.

hey got us back on track there fausto :


You sure about that, sport?Is it something relevant/significant, ]or merely a transient increase that affects pretty much nothing?</div>
if you compare the raise in test,gh and igf and assess thr physiological effects they have on the body it is negligible,but are they increased the answer is yes.

did i get to where iam now, by using high reps and waiting for my igf and gh levels to spike no!

one thing i can garantee though,if you put more effort into your training and put less condesending remarks in your posts,we would all be happy.</div>
Sure thing, bro. Got any tips?I'm struggling with the gunz, can't crack the magical 13&quot; barrier...surely you can help?Thanks, much appreciated!</div>

lets clarify a few things as regards to the purpose of this thread and for those who misconstrued what i wrote:

will the (naturally)increased levels of testosterone and gh we get from training give you a huge and ripped body? absolutely not !

do these increases in said hormones create a healthy environment for hypertrophy? yes!

are the high rep ranges better suited for hypertrophy than all others? absolutely not !

are high reps useful within the frame work of any given training routine and may they lead to some hypertrophy? yes!

@ morgoth,dont be ashamed,theres nothing wrong with 13&quot; arms if you have the bodyfat to match!but obviously theres something lacking when you continually feel the need to belittle people and posture in this way.its far easier to admit that you are wrong or indeed have learnt something from someone than to hide behind a barrage of insults and quips.step up,drop thew attitude and lets learn something.
and that said,i would be glad to help anyone who asks for it.</div>
Thanks bro...could you please restate what you taught me today?I suck as a pupil, and all of this complex muscle building stuff is so hard to follow.Thanks.
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