Testosterone in HST vs Traditional?

Good job Faz. THAT should be a sticky - so many are confused and locked into the rep thing due to the initial vanilla concept.
Not to highjack, but weren't the western lifters getting into using strips, pinpricks, or something like that to determine nitrogen content of the blood as an indicator for anabolic potential for a while?
It occurs to me that since it is, as you posted, difficult to accurately determine growth stimulus by workload, that a second best would be to determine growth potentiality by conditions and work from that.
My apologies to the "shut up and lift" crowd. The adults are talking here.
 
There's nothing like quoting original sources!  
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(faz @ Jul. 17 2007,04:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think it is important to get rid of the notion of the “number” of reps as a principle of muscle growth. Repetitions are not a &quot;principle&quot; of hypertrophy, any more than counting the number of cranks it takes to reel in a fish is necessary to catch fish. You simply crank as many times as is necessary to get the job done. I'm not saying you are doing this, but in order to understand what it is you need to accomplish in the gym, it will help to avoid thinking of the specified number of reps as a restriction or limitation.

Yes, the # of reps a person uses is related to the amount of a weight they’re using as well as their level of strength. However, the # of reps in no way should be used to dictate how much weight they should use. In other words, the only reason we designate a specific number of reps to use is to maintain order in our training. They are used as a guide whereby we can measure our progress. An incorrect usage of reps is to only increase the weight when more reps can be performed at a given weight load. This might be sufficient for an average strength-training program, but it is not a good way to increase hypertrophy.

So if I haven’t completely confused people as to what I am trying to say, let me summarize things this way:

1) There is a certain amount or threshold of weight or tension that must be applied to your muscle tissue in order to get it to grow. That threshold changes up or down depending on your level of conditioning.

2) Active Muscle Contraction (both concentric and eccentric) is facilitative to muscle hypertrophy when tension is applied. Although Passive Stretch is a potent inducer of muscle growth, in most instances we cannot apply the necessary level of passive stretch to each muscle of our body to accomplish real whole body muscle growth. Thus we use muscle contractions to shorten the tissue before stretching it. This way we don’t have to take each muscle to its absolute limit of range of motion before it experiences high levels of stretch.

3) Eccentric contractions are more effective at inducing hypertrophy than concentric contractions using the same relative amount of weight.

4) There is no physiological threshold of repetitions that is necessary for the growth stimulus to be created. It is dependant on the duration and amplitude of stretch relative to the tissues level of conditioning, not the actual number of contractions.

5) Fatigue is not the muscle’s way of indicating that a stimulus for growth has occurred. A growth stimulus can be created without taking a set to failure, and at other times, even taking a set to failure fails to produce an adequate growth stimulus. We have no direct way of knowing how successful we have been at creating a growth stimulus from workout to workout. Direct measurements require a laboratory setting and painful biopsies. The only way to really gauge is to look at what has previously been done to the tissue (i.e. how much weight, how much volume, what level of conditioning are we working with). By continuing to increase the duration and/or amplitude of tension/stretch/load, we can be reasonably sure we are creating an adequate growth stimulus (assuming diet is in order). “Within reason”, it is the total number of reps performed of a given movement during a single exercise bout that is important, not how many are performed each set. You can blame two prominent exercise researchers and their infatuation with minuscule fluctuations in hormone levels for any confusion on this point.


I’m not sure if that clears anything up or not. But it should help to see why the number of reps per set is less important than the overall progression of critical training variables (i.e. load, volume, frequency, diet) over time.


- Bryan Haycock</div>
eloquently put faz.

this exactly why i think that no rep range(within reason)should be overlooked as regards to growth or its usefulness in training.its then down to the individual to find out what works best for them.even though these basic fundamental principles will yield good results.

reps,volume and total sets can be adjusted once over the intial learning curve.this is why i dont use standard hst anymore, progressive load and time under tention/total reps(incorperated through rep ranges)are the way to go for me but i put them in a standard split routine.

this allows me to go in hard and heavy and blitz a specific muscle group,giving it my full attention.where as when i was using the standard vanilla hst i was going heavy with deads but then found it difficult to go full on with squats.this is just an example.i never liked using submaximal weights but dont train to failure as often which is something i learned on this site.

i find it benificial to try different routines and pick out the best parts from each and mold them all together.
 
cheers guys but that was quoted from bryan.
ICARS you can do a bodypart splitt using HST principals.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Java, although I am not a moderator, I'd like to caution you on the language</div>

I've edited my post (can't edit the quotes though). Sorry, I got used to the filter catching my indiscretions.

Faz, thanks for posting those. It does bear to keep in mind that Brian suggests total reps per exercise to be in the 15 to 20 range, no matter how many reps per set (1x15,2x10,3x15).

Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sorry, I got used to the filter catching my indiscretions.</div>

Cool, filters don't always work specially outside of their programmed intention (main swear words only I guess)
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs? </div>

Does not pay to have a &quot;cow&quot; about them, if you don't like them, just don't do them, but they are a part of HST, and this particular forum is about HST if I can remember correctly? We're all entitled to our particular opinions, but &quot;dissing&quot; 15's is bound to cause some &quot;deviations&quot; to the original thread and thus loose the purpose!
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(javacody @ Jul. 17 2007,14:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs?</div>
if you mean the 15s then they dont have to be light,try doing 15s squats with 100k
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if you mean submax weights in general,then the FAQs can give you the reason for that,but generally if you want to be in the gym 3x a wk then you have to have some light days,no matter what way you design it,if you dont you will burn out.

if you want to train heavy all the time then you must give up frequency,ie train 2x or 1x a wk,bryan has designed HST for more frequent training which is why he has incorporated fatigue management via submax weights/zigzaging/sd, that way you dont have to figure it out for yourself its already in the routine.
 
That's the entire reason I'm off HST for now; not enough hours or energy in the day with my present job, so I just go in and do my best, hitting failure and hoping for a second workout in a week. This week: none. I feel like a flat tire.
 
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(faz @ Jul. 18 2007,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(javacody @ Jul. 17 2007,14:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs?</div>
if you mean the 15s then they dont have to be light,try doing 15s squats with 100k
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if you mean submax weights in general,then the FAQs can give you the reason for that,but generally if you want to be in the gym 3x a wk then you have to have some light days,no matter what way you design it,if you dont you will burn out.

if you want to train heavy all the time then you must give up frequency,ie train 2x or 1x a wk,bryan has designed HST for more frequent training which is why he has incorporated fatigue management via submax weights/zigzaging/sd, that way you dont have to figure it out for yourself its already in the routine.</div>
I don`t get this argument. If you have subject X and subject Y, subject X being able to do 15 reps with 100k without having an NDE and keeping reps in the tank, and subject Y is able to do 15 reps with 50k in the same conditions, would subject X get sooper dooper results, and subject Y would get poor ones?Why?And how can one measure the effectiveness of an exercise simply through perceived difficulty?Honest questions, no hidden meaning to them.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,09:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don`t get this argument. If you have subject X and subject Y, subject X being able to do 15 reps with 100k without having an NDE and keeping reps in the tank, and subject Y is able to do 15 reps with 50k in the same conditions, would subject X get sooper dooper results, and subject Y would get poor ones?Why?And how can one measure the effectiveness of an exercise simply through perceived difficulty?Honest questions, no hidden meaning to them.</div>
if 100k or 50k is your max then you will both get results,i didnt mean that because you lift more it means more results,what is heavy for you might not be heavy for me.
what i was trying to explain was in answer to this(Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs?)
that 15s dont have to be light weights and as long as progression is there then hypertrophy should follow.
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(faz @ Jul. 19 2007,12:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,09:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don`t get this argument. If you have subject X and subject Y, subject X being able to do 15 reps with 100k without having an NDE and keeping reps in the tank, and subject Y is able to do 15 reps with 50k in the same conditions, would subject X get sooper dooper results, and subject Y would get poor ones?Why?And how can one measure the effectiveness of an exercise simply through perceived difficulty?Honest questions, no hidden meaning to them.</div>
if 100k or 50k is your max then you will both get results,i didnt mean that because you lift more it means more results,what is heavy for you might not be heavy for me.
what i was trying to explain was in answer to this(Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs?)
that 15s dont have to be light weights and as long as progression is there then hypertrophy should follow.
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MMMkay. I'll refrain from asking another question, as the hatred seems to be strong when one questions aspects of HST
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">as the hatred seems to be strong when one questions aspects of HST</div>

No &quot;hatred&quot; involved Morgoth, simply this part of the site is about HST not really other modes of training and thus we should keep it in line with that.

Many of us choose not to do 15's and that is fine, it is a choice and therefore up to you.

The original &quot;mode&quot; of this thread for instance was questioning release of testosterone with HST vs. other modes of training, but after a while it started deviating from that to a like/dislike for 15s and their usefulness.
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We've lost track of the original question and have made the thread too long, it ends up loosing its effectiveness to enlighten people (to me that is what this forum is all about, right
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)when we are all capable of so much more knowledgeable and focussed discussions.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,11:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Jul. 19 2007,12:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,09:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don`t get this argument. If you have subject X and subject Y, subject X being able to do 15 reps with 100k without having an NDE and keeping reps in the tank, and subject Y is able to do 15 reps with 50k in the same conditions, would subject X get sooper dooper results, and subject Y would get poor ones?Why?And how can one measure the effectiveness of an exercise simply through perceived difficulty?Honest questions, no hidden meaning to them.</div>
if 100k or 50k is your max then you will both get results,i didnt mean that because you lift more it means more results,what is heavy for you might not be heavy for me.
what i was trying to explain was in answer to this(Perhaps its the lighter weights that some of the folks feel aren't serving their needs?)
that 15s dont have to be light weights and as long as progression is there then hypertrophy should follow.
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MMMkay. I'll refrain from asking another question, as the hatred seems to be strong when one questions aspects of HST
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i certainly dont hate anyone that questions HST morgorth.
and as you said in your previos post an honest question is not a problem
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at the end of the day the more effort you put in,the better the results will be irrespective of wether you can lift 50k for 15 or 100k for 15,and effort doesnt mean to failure.

the results will obviously depend on genetic factors,diet and rest.but they will be similar.

unfortunately none of this leads to a big/noticable increase in testosterone,but at the higher rep ranges squats for example do boost gh and igf levels,which are almost as important.

hey got us back on track there fausto  
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">hey got us back on track there Fausto</div>

Darn...starting to sound like a traffic cop!
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(lcars @ Jul. 19 2007,19:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">at the end of the day the more effort you put in,the better the results will be irrespective of wether you can lift 50k for 15 or 100k for 15,and effort doesnt mean to failure.

the results will obviously depend on genetic factors,diet and rest.but they will be similar.

unfortunately none of this leads to a big/noticable increase in testosterone,but at the higher rep ranges squats for example do boost gh and igf levels,which are almost as important.

hey got us back on track there fausto
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You sure about that, sport?Is it something relevant/significant, or merely a transient increase that affects pretty much nothing?

I do wish Kraemer(or was it Fleck...one of the bozos, if not both) hadn't popularized the notion that minute increases in GH associated with high-rep limited-rest lactate training had any bearing/were worth considering...
 
I prefer to keep my rep ranges between 3 - 10 , I've discontinued 15's for reasons Morgoth the Dark Enemy has already touched on - this is not to say that I would never do them in the future if joint issues/rehab became a factor . My current cycle is 10,10,8,8,5,5,3,3,deload(1wk), repeat-while being a bit early to tell ( I'm @ w/o #3 of 8's) I feel this is a benificial tweak for me personally, and imagine I will continue this way for some time. I personally feel that SD , like 15's- is something I &quot;keep in the tool box&quot; for when nessessary and prefer to remain in the &quot;chronic&quot; stage of growth more than the straight forwards vanilla style would prescribe.

My current program:


M,W,F,SU,TU,TH,SA,M,W,F ect.ect.

Flat Bench
Incline Bench
Chest supported rows
BB rows
Overhead press
Upright rows
Deadlift/OH Squat (alternated w/o-w/o)


What I did was double the exersizes I was doing while keeping volume the same. Example:

Before- Flat bench x2 sets

Now - Flat bench x 1 set
Incline x 1 set

ect.ect.

Seems to be perfect for me so far.
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BTW for any interested I'm doing chest supported rows by rolling the BB under my bench placing a pillow on the surface to help the ab/chest pain and lastly covering the pillow with a towel for sweat absorbtion. The ROM may not be that of a machine dedicated to the movement but the results have been amazing since I added them in .
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jul. 19 2007,14:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You sure about that, sport?Is it something relevant/significant, or merely a transient increase that affects pretty much nothing?

I do wish Kraemer(or was it Fleck...one of the bozos, if not both) hadn't popularized the notion that minute increases in GH associated with high-rep limited-rest lactate training had any bearing/were worth considering...</div>
I fell for that one, myself...until I learned that the increases had low/no impact on my physique. High rep workouts gave me a great pump, but at the end of the day, I got smaller &amp; weaker.
 
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(Slapshotz @ Jul. 20 2007,00:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">[
I fell for that one, myself...until I learned that the increases had low/no impact on my physique.  High rep workouts gave me a great pump, but at the end of the day, I got smaller &amp; weaker.</div>
i wouldnt recomend high rep workouts to anyone,but to have high reps as part of your routine as well as low reps IMO is a good idea.
basicly you have all bases covered
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(faz @ Jul. 20 2007,10:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Slapshotz @ Jul. 20 2007,00:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">[
I fell for that one, myself...until I learned that the increases had low/no impact on my physique. High rep workouts gave me a great pump, but at the end of the day, I got smaller &amp; weaker.</div>
i wouldnt recomend high rep workouts to anyone,but to have high reps as part of your routine as well as low reps IMO is a good idea.
basicly you have all bases covered
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I wonder if somewhere along this thread I hadn't mentioned this...that is before I was enlightened about leg growth through high reps and the importance of GH and IGF release through high reps and the increased occurence of reproductive function in males doing high reps(oh wait, that wasn't mentioned:) )...could be.

Metabolic work has its place, especially if you're doing specialization work(something you that should be done once you reach a certain level of development, as odds of bringing everything up at the same time are slim-something I fairly recently was taught):doing something like heavy 5x5 compounds for the focus bodypart(s) then add 4 sets of 10-12 reps of something more along the lines of an isolation exercise. This is great in the context of an AM/PM split, doing the heavy stuff in the morning and the light stuff in the afternoon. There are also other ways to tackle specialization, of course, this was merely an example. Oh, and this works for anything but legs...for legs, you absolutely definitely need high reps, no other way around it, it's a fact. Honest.

And to answer the OPs OQ:Test suspension(I think this is the fastest &quot;acting&quot;, and the fastest metabolized variant, could(and proably am) be wrong) is the best means of boosting testosterone-get some of that and it'll work wonders far beyond the insignificant differences this or that training routine bring on that front.
 
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