Are you experiencing Gains with HST?

Totentanz


If the world were black and white, you might be right, throw in a little thing called genetics, it gets kinda fuzzy. If I understand strength correctly, a tight grouping of muscle fiber can attribute to strength, this in no way suggests volume of, only efficiency of the muscle fibers. Every time I read someone saying strength = muscle mass, I cant help but think BS, cause I know from experience, its no guarantee.


scientific muscle

maybe you should re-read what you posted.  It suggests a muscle CAN adapt to an exercise and then you would benefit from a switch.  It only suggests that changing exercises after a two week period may not be required, says jack crap about 8 weeks, big difference.

So please explain to me how changing exercises every eight weeks, to attack a muscle from a slightly different approach is a bad thing?
 
Everyone thinks they have plateud and met there genetic limits so early own....its pretty funny sometimes how we all know the truth but we think that "we" are that 1 % that is advanced and constantly plateaus.

I think Sci said it all in the post.

Changing exercises is a good thing if you just get bored but I dont see any major benefit from it.

Also if you are not gaining weight you are not eating enough!
 
What I think is funny, people eat more, gain fat, confuse that with muscle growth.  
wink.gif
  Im not saying you dont have to eat to gain muscle, its fact.



However, I am more than willing to read what anyone has to say in regards to exercise changes and how its NOT effective or how it DOESNT make sense.   By all means read what scientific muscle quoted before hand.


And by all means explain this, the theory of muscle confusion is crap yet...and I quote from the FAQ that scientific muscle so kindly provided:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You will benefit from switching, but only after the muscle has “adapted” to the exercise....</div>

How can that be? That seriously conflicts with the idea that you can do the same exercises now and until the end of time.
rock.gif
 
Okay fine, you are correct and Bryan (who has decades of education and experience) is wrong.

By the way, you are totally misunderstanding that quote. He isn't saying &quot;once the muscle has adapted, you will benefit from switching&quot; but he IS saying that &quot;you will benefit from new exercises once the muscle has adapted to the new exercise.&quot; As you should know, when you begin a new lift, for the first little while all the strength gains will be due to neural adaptation and the muscle won't be recieving very much actual benefit.
Maybe you should reread the paragraph immediately after the part you quoted:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Switching exercises that require a high degree of neural skill (most compound exercises) is generally less productive. The hypertrophic response is delayed according to the duration of learning to manifest the neural drive necessary to generate the tension on the muscle fibers for microtrauma to happen. This is generally not a concern with isolation exercises.
</div>

So basically he is saying that switching your compounds to something else, even another compound, is generally a bad idea because the hypertrophic responside is delayed while your nervous system learns the exercise.
 
Personally I switch exercises very often.

However I shouldn't. B/c i can't gauge my success with increasig poundages like I should. But I do it b/c I have been doing this for a long year and I get bored.

As for as the muslce getting &quot;adapted&quot; I see what you mean.

However my response to that is....if your muscle adapts.

SD !!!!!!

End our mind its seems that switching exercises makes a difference. But I really don't think it does make that big of a difference. Now this doesn't mean that other exercises don't stimulate some other muscle fibers in a different way.

Personally I think that if you were to take to people and we will use dumbell curls for the argument.

But say we take two people who both workout for 8 weeks straight and then SD for 14 days. Then they start back working out.

The first guys does just standard barbell curls and nothing else (pretty boring) however each week he makes it a point to do more weight than the weak before even its is by 2 pounds.

The second guys works out just as hard however he does different exercises every other workout.

IMO...the guy who pays attention to detail the most will reap better rewards. That guy would most likely be the guy who does just barbell curls.

Some of the best gains of my life were before I even knew of HST.

I had a theory of my own that worked....by accident I found it. Not by science.

That theory I used before HST was...I picked 2 exercise per bodypart (both compound) and I simply did more work each workout.

I didn't believe in isolations. I believe in just mass movements or compounds.

And it worked.

People thought I was crazy b/c I didn't work the muscle from 3 different angles but what I found was most of the people who do that don't track there performance b/c its harder to track weekly progress with 3 different exercises.

my 2 cents
biggrin.gif
 
<div>
(Totentanz @ Jan. 03 2007,11:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Okay fine, you are correct and Bryan (who has decades of education and experience) is wrong.

By the way, you are totally misunderstanding that quote.  He isn't saying &quot;once the muscle has adapted, you will benefit from switching&quot; but he IS saying that &quot;you will benefit from new exercises once the muscle has adapted to the new exercise.&quot;  As you should know, when you begin a new lift, for the first little while all the strength gains will be due to neural adaptation and the muscle won't be recieving very much actual benefit.
Maybe you should reread the paragraph immediately after the part you quoted:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Switching exercises that require a high degree of neural skill (most compound exercises) is generally less productive. The hypertrophic response is delayed according to the duration of learning to manifest the neural drive necessary to generate the tension on the muscle fibers for microtrauma to happen. This is generally not a concern with isolation exercises.
</div>

So basically he is saying that switching your compounds to something else, even another compound, is generally a bad idea because the hypertrophic responside is delayed while your nervous system learns the exercise.</div>
Good post!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">By the way, you are totally misunderstanding that quote.  He isn't saying &quot;once the muscle has adapted, you will benefit from switching&quot; but he IS saying that &quot;you will benefit from new exercises once the muscle has adapted to the new exercise.&quot;</div>


Think this is where I end the discussion....we can split hairs till hell freezes...it is what it is.

Over an eight week cycle, with HST, or more weeks, depending on YOU, you should not only have adapted to the exercise but have reached your physical limitations in the lbs you can push, so tell me of a better time to start over with a new movements?




Joe muscle

Its bodybuilding, not strength training, you judge your progress with physical development, bodyweight vs body fat percentage, no?
 
Probably the most important elements or principles of HST are progressive load, training frequency tuned to take advantage of post-workout protein synthesis rates, and strategic deconditioning.

Key Word Progressive Load.

I am not strength training...but I try to get stronger!
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,12:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">By the way, you are totally misunderstanding that quote. He isn't saying &quot;once the muscle has adapted, you will benefit from switching&quot; but he IS saying that &quot;you will benefit from new exercises once the muscle has adapted to the new exercise.&quot;</div>


Think this is where I end the discussion....we can split hairs till hell freezes...it is what it is.

Over an eight week cycle, with HST, or more weeks, depending on YOU, you should not only have adapted to the exercise but have reached your physical limitations in the lbs you can push, so tell me of a better time to start over with a new movements?</div>
You are still missing the point. The point is that you WANT to be adapted to an exercise. If you AREN'T adapted, then you won't be getting much of a hypertrophic response from the lift, because most of the effect from it will be neural learning. Do you get it? In other words, only after your nervous system learns a new movement will you begin getting much of a hypertrophic benefit from the lift. And compounds, being highly technical, take your nervous system much longer to adapt to then isolations.

Example. You have enough muscle mass that you should probably be able to deadlift 300 lbs. But you've never deadlifted before... you start out doing the lift, obviously you won't be able to do anywhere near 300 lbs. Obviously, you will gain strength from the lift quickly as your nervous system learns the movement, BUT you won't gain much, if any size from it, even though the lift will make you feel sore, because you will be using light weights that aren't even close to being effective for hypertrophy.

Is there anything you need explained more clearly?
 
<div>
(Totentanz @ Jan. 03 2007,15:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Example.  You have enough muscle mass that you should probably be able to deadlift 300 lbs.  But you've never deadlifted before... you start out doing the lift, obviously you won't be able to do anywhere near 300 lbs.  Obviously, you will gain strength from the lift quickly as your nervous system learns the movement, BUT you won't gain much, if any size from it, even though the lift will make you feel sore, because you will be using light weights that aren't even close to being effective for hypertrophy.

Is there anything you need explained more clearly?</div>
I was about to say the same thing Tot.

This is why guys see there strength increase in a movement early on!
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,10:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, I am more than willing to read what anyone has to say in regards to exercise changes and how its NOT effective or how it DOESNT make sense.  </div>
i believe totzs' reply was what you were looking for.

by all means if your feeling stale change up whatever iso exer. you might be doing but i think most would agree you need to keep the main compounds consistant for more than just 1 cycle. probably more like 4+ cycles for many compounds and the real staples, squat and dead (if you can do them) should be in almost every cycle you plan to grow with.

lets take the deadlift example these guys were using. if you start out at 180lbs (having never done them prev.) and work your way up to 300 for 5 after 8 weeks then youve done well. next cycle you'd probably start around 220-230 and shoot for 340-350 for 5 by the end of your cycle (strength gains will be slower with the stronger you get). sounds reasonable. but if after cycle 1 you switch exer. to rows (back) and leg press (quads) just to hit the muscles in a diff. way then when you go back to the deads you must re-adapt to the exer.. chances are 220-230 will be too agressive a jump so once again you start out @180-200. in the end you may crack 300 that cycle but your progress will not be as good as just banging away at the main compounds cycle after cycle.

and yes, increased strength does equal increased muscle with enough food. no sense bringing genetics into it as thats another argument and too many people use it as an excuse for poor progress. i believe genetics can play a signif. role but you only get to play the hand your dealt. there are some seriously big/strong guys on this site but im willing to bet most are of avg./poor &quot;muscle&quot; genetics who are trying to achieve every last bit of their potential......whatever it might be.

good luck
 
well bluejacket, gentics is the end all determining factor of what you can or cannot accomplish in bodybuilding, otherwise, everyone would be going pro...dont think so.


totentanz

I understand whats been said and being said, what you've failed to point out is the time in which it takes the muscle to adapt, or for the neaural learning to take place...I mean call me crazy but if you were gonna argue something, when my points 8 weeks is a good time to change exercises, I would imagine your arguement would be but it takes X amount of time to achieve neural learning...understand?  
wink.gif




Its amazing how many answers a person gets within a single thread.  Everyone is against what I say, yet have their own OPINIONS which differ from each other.  I love forums.

One person says they hit a plateau and went to 5X5.

Next person says you never hit a plateau, eat more.

Next person says never change exercises, ever.

Next person states they change exercises but shouldnt.  Then if you know better, why do your own thing?

I love how everyone brings up SD, when the resident experts themselves, even the creator of HST states that a week is in no way enough time, as it takes much longer for a muscle to decondition, yet its the standard.  I even recall the resident experts suggesting that light exercises could even be done during the SD period.

Now someone is trying to tell me that soreness, which I would think would indicate muscle trama or tear, which I believe is the goal of hypertrophy, or microtrauma in the case of HST, is in no way and indication of muscle growth, as the muscle wont grow till the nervous system gets used to the weight.  OK  and why the hell not, I would imagine the body still want to repair the damage or build the muscle, in anticipation that this is the norm and the muscle will be affected again simillarly, which last I checked is hypertrophy.




Now here is my experience and why I have trouble agreeing with the CNS theory.

Im gonna use one lift as an example, there was a time I could bench X amount of weight, my upper body couldnt have look any more average, yet what I could bench was considered good for my overall build.  Fast forward, Im now doing HST using 1/3-2/3 the weight I could handle in that lift, yet my chest is more developed than ever....how can that be?  Im at the same bodyweight.  My CNS isnt special, im no exception, according to the CNS theory, I shouldnt be developing muscle, as I havent reached my potential strength.  


Just give me input on how long the CNS requires on average to adapt to a specific exercise, then I might be happier.  
biggrin.gif



Since Ive been grossly misinformed, someone needs to modify the FAQ as it stands, the ony reference to muscle gains is this one:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....;t=4638

Has nothing to say about neural learning, which I would imagine would be important to point out. Mater of fact, punch in neural or CNS, select HST FAQ, click search, nothing comes up.
 
I think Tot and Blue really brought it home: now I know scientifically what I've experienced. I think it's common knowledge for anyone who's been a gym rat for a while that there are a lot of guys who switch a lot and don't seem to get very big. Neural adaptation explains a lot, and I don't think 8 weeks is really much time. 7 cycles of HST however, is significant.
I personally can say that I hate to have to work out. I despise going in tired, or sore, and getting warmed up is a bit of an ordeal. But once moving, I love the endorphins, the sounds, the music, the PR's, and getting through it. But I've never been bored with it, regardless of how long I do something, so I personally don't have that problem.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I bet your performing the same damn exercises now, you were performing with HST, so what changed? So please explain to me, how is changing your workout routine to 5X5, while maintaining the same exercises any better than maintaining an HST routine while performing different exercises?</div>
Yes, the same exersizes, except for eliminating iso's except for friday, and using my new T-bar row instead of the uncomfortable cable style that bothers my back. The new excitement is doing only 3-4 exersizes instead of 13-14. But doing them like they're the last exerizes on earth, with more energy available.
How is it better? Tot explained that pretty well, and as a side note, 5x5 is not BETTER than HST or vice versa. In a way, it's a different way of doing HST, with strength as the primary focus. SST.
I also was not attacking you and apologise if it looked that way. I also thought I'd seen an indication of your age in one of your posts, so assumed you were pretty young. Heck man, to me and O&amp;G, you're ALL young!
 
Fair enough, I dont totally disagree with everyone, I just know from my experience, some things being said, just do not mesh from my experiences.

I know I rub people the wrong way on this forum, I do it intentionally to get a response but it should also be known, while I question everything, Im on my third or fourth, lost count, HST cycle and following it by the book, no exceptions, so I am giving it every opportunity to work, im just not satisfied with the results and my diet is in check, as far as what I consume, I eat anymore Im just gonna be fat.



Funny you mention the endorphin release, I stopped getting that awesome feeling years ago, I have no idea why but it just stopped. I used to feel like a million bux walking out of the gym, then bam, nothing, yet I persist, as you've probably gathered from my posts, im a stubborn sumbitch.



I would still like to see some info on neural learning, in regards to how long it takes to happen. Heres a thought, everyone has heard newbie gains, I can assure you some amazing things happen but if 8wks isnt long enough for neural adaption, then a miracle must happen, cause newbies gain muscle and strength. Hows that possible?
 
I think the point they are trying to make regarding neural or CNS learning is that the longer you do a particular lift the more your CNS will adapt to it and become more efficent at it. Which in turn will recruit more muscle fibers when you perform the lift.

I don't think they are suggesting that when you are new to a lift that you won't make any muscular size gains until your CNS adapts....just that you will make better gains the longer you continue to do the lift and your CNS becomes more efficent at recruting muscle fibers to perform the lift.

Personally I don't think your CNS will every become totally efficent at any particular lift and that it will always try to adapt to some extent as you continue to perform a lift. Which I believe is why you can continue to get stronger without getting bigger with the proper training. Obviously there WILL be a point where it quits adapting but I would bet that time frame would be many years of performing the same lift.

That's my take on it anyhow. Maybe I'm wrong.....it wouldn't be the first time and I'm sure it wouldn't be the last!
laugh.gif
 
Bring up some points bulldog.


I would guess that CNS adaptation is highy important, as one of the ideas behing HST is that we keep it adapted, otherwise, this is when the commonly misunderstood overtraining sets in. So how an adapted CNS could be used as an excuse not to change exercises, is beyond me at this time, as the goal is to keep the CNS stress within reason. Just my two cents though.


Im sure one of the hardcore HST'ers will drop some info here shortly.
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,19:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would guess that CNS adaptation is highy important, as one of the ideas behing HST is that we keep it adapted, otherwise, this is when the commonly misunderstood overtraining sets in. So how an adapted CNS could be used as an excuse not to change exercises, is beyond me at this time, as the goal is to keep the CNS stress within reason. Just my two cents though.


Im sure one of the hardcore HST'ers will drop some info here shortly.</div>
I think you are confused. Neural adaptations and CNS fatigue aren't the same thing. Neural adaptations don't cause 'overtraining' but CNS fatigue can.
How long does it take to adapt? Can't really answer that one. Obviously it varies. Deadlifts will clearly take longer for basic neural learning than something like curls would. Of course deadlifts also hit a lot more muscles and allow much greater loading than curls, so...
Why 8 weeks to change exercises? How can you hit new PRs in those exercises in only 8 weeks? The goal is to increase the weight used in each exercise over time, right? If I can get my deadlift from 300 to 500 over a couple years, that's progressively loading, right? If I'm only doing deadlifts for 8 weeks before switching to lunges or front squats instead, it's going to be hard to keep progressively loading the legs, eh?

If you still think that soreness means muscle growth, then you haven't done enough reading yet. Soreness usually means that you are doing something right, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. Take two 5 lb DBs and do 3 sets of 50 curls. You'll probably be sore the next day. Did it do anything for muscle growth? Nope.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Im gonna use one lift as an example, there was a time I could bench X amount of weight, my upper body couldnt have look any more average, yet what I could bench was considered good for my overall build. Fast forward, Im now doing HST using 1/3-2/3 the weight I could handle in that lift, yet my chest is more developed than ever....how can that be? Im at the same bodyweight. My CNS isnt special, im no exception, according to the CNS theory, I shouldnt be developing muscle, as I havent reached my potential strength.
</div>

Okay, now it seems like you are intentionally pretending to be retarded just to evoke a response. Obviously there are many reasons your chest could appear to be more developed to you. Maybe you are just seeing it differently. Maybe your bodyfat is less than before or more than before, making your chest appear to be more developed than previously.
But... if you really are using way less in bench than you were before, assuming you haven't had a serious injury at some point, then you are doing something majorly wrong. Even with the submax weights in HST that we use, there is no time when you should be using one third of your previous weight for that lift. That goes completely against the principle of progressive load.
Anyway, I don't remember ever saying that your CNS requires you to use your maximum potential weight in order to see results. As HST principles suggest, a certain percentage of your RM will be enough to bring about a growth response. What percentage? Depends. But usually 80% of your RM should be plenty enough.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Im on my third or fourth, lost count, HST cycle and following it by the book, no exceptions, so I am giving it every opportunity to work, im just not satisfied with the results and my diet is in check, as far as what I consume, I eat anymore Im just gonna be fat.
</div>

How do you know your diet is in check? A lot of guys say their diet is in check, but they aren't counting calories so how do they know? If you aren't getting results, you are doing something wrong somewhere. Anyway, some fat gain is necessary in order to be sure that you are eating enough for muscle gain. Sure, it's possible to get your diet exact enough that you gain almost all muscle and very little fat, but it is near impossible to get it just right and most guys that try end up remaining small and disappointed in their physiques.
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,18:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Next person states they change exercises but shouldnt.  Then if you know better, why do your own thing?</div>
Pizza and doughnuts are not the best foods to stay lean...I know that....(but I still eat them.)

Were I live the speed limit is 55 mph and no faster yet I still get caught driving over 55 mph.

Why do I change exercises if I know better....I think I said earlier because I get bored!
smile.gif


The same reason I don't eat steak, chicken and tuna all day...I get bored.

I know if I eat that 18th doughnut...im going to get fat...but I get bored.
biggrin.gif
 
Possibly off topic, kind of, sort of, but not really.

CNS adaptation is going to happen. It can happen more slowly with HST type workouts, at a rate appropriate to go with the muscle growth or more quickly with power type workouts geared towards improving 1RM lifts.

This is how some power lifters manage what appears to be superhuman feats of strength. Instead of the normal number of neural connections telling the normal amount of cells in the muscle to fire, more of the connections are made, more cells fire, more of the muscle contracts...getting more strength out of the same muscle. Of course more muscle with even more cells contracting at the same time is even better.

I ran into a problem training primarily for CNS adaptation though. When I was PLing, I wanted my CNS to adapt because it really sucks. I got up to a 325lb dead lift and 250 squat, not great for most standards, but for a man who couldn't walk without assistance less than 3 years earlier, it was not bad. It could have been even better if I wasn't training for a triathlon and under eating at the same time.

The trouble came when my joints couldn't handle the weight, the muscles simply were too small to support and hold everything together. I started getting hurt.

HST started turning that around for me. I had another attack, another injury, lost weight, lost strength...HST gave me more muscle and I got stronger again. Not stronger like I was, but better. Using similar principals to HST, I'm able to intelligently strength train now. Building it slowly. Building muscle to support it.

If I'm still walking a year from now, I owe it to HST. How's that for &quot;making progress with HST&quot;?

Yeah, it works. Find the way to adapt it to your situation, eat enough to grow, and it should work for you too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top