Are you experiencing Gains with HST?

BTW, Totentanz can come across as very blunt and harsh, but I honestly think 99% of what he posts is dead-on accurate and useful information. He is just trying to help confused trainees. I could probably write an excellent bodybuilding book using only posts that Tot has posted here at the HST forum. (OVER 2000 OF THEM!)
I actually have grown fond of reading his 'blunt' posts...makes me laugh sometimes. This quote had me rolling on the floor with tears streaming down my face....
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I like the comparison between Cutler and that little guy in the picture Cova linked. It's just funny. That little guy is staring at that barbell with 135 lbs on it - what is he going to do? Is he going to deadlift that thing? 135 lb deadlift. Woah buddy. Even if he's just going to do a clean and press or something, that's still a pissant weight. That guy is maybe the size of one of Cutler's thighs, if he's lucky.</div>
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Jan. 03 2007,21:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why do I change exercises if I know better....I think I said earlier because I get bored!
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If you consider what has been said to be truth, then your boredome isnt a reason, its an excuse.  As your selling yourself short of your potential by doing it your way.  
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Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you still think that soreness means muscle growth,then you haven't done enough reading yet.  Soreness usually means that you are doing something right, but it doesn't necessarily mean that.  Take two 5 lb DBs and do 3 sets of 50 curls.  You'll probably be sore the next day.  Did it do anything for muscle growth?  Nope.</div>


Uh...I couldnt disagree more.  I used to have a job that involved my doing a repetetive motion daily, using mild lbs, I used to get comments all the time on the development of my muscles in that area.  Thats fact and I wasnt lifting at the time.  Hell, anyone thats had a physical ~ repetitive job knows this to be true.  



Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why 8 weeks to change exercises?  How can you hit new PRs in those exercises in only 8 weeks?  The goal is to increase the weight used in each exercise over time,right?  If I can get my deadlift from 300 to 500 over a couple years, that's progressively loading, right?  If I'm only doing deadlifts for 8 weeks before switching to lunges or front squats instead, it's going to be hard to keep progressively loading the legs, eh?<!--</div>


Take out the 15's, do 5's following the 5's until good form can no longer be maintained, your gonna be in the neighborhood of 8-10wks, from my eperience.  Think about the purpose of SD, also take into effect that one to two weeks is in no way gonna give you true SD, thats from the experts, so how could alternating two programs, each same basic principles, only varying exercises work?  Think about it.


Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How long does it take to adapt?  Can't really answer that one. </div>

Then I guess its my opinion against yours??


Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Okay @ now it seems like you are intentionally pretending to be retarded just to evoke a response.  Obviously there are many reasons your chest could appear to be more developed to you.  Maybe you are just seeing it differently.  Maybe your bodyfat is less than before or more than before, making your chest appear to be more developed than previously.
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Nope, nice try.



Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Anyway, I don't remember ever saying that your CNS requires you to use your maximum potential weight in order to see results. </div>

someone using your username did.....they even provided an example....


Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Example.  You have enough muscle mass that you should probably be able to deadlift 300 lbs.  But you've never deadlifted before... you start out doing the lift,obviously you won't be able to do anywhere near 300 lbs.  Obviously, you will gain strength from the lift quickly as your nervous system learns the movement, BUT you won't gain much, if any size from it,</div>


the terms &quot;not much&quot; and &quot;if any&quot; dont invoke visuals of massive gains.   Where I come from &quot;if any&quot; means near zero or insignificant.  


Totentanz
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How do you know your diet is in check?  A lot of guys say their diet is in check, but they aren't counting calories so how do they know?  If you aren't getting results, you are doing something wrong somewhere.  Anyway, some fat gain is necessary in order to be sure that you are eating enough for muscle gain. </div>

No chit, you just explained how I know Im getting enough calories.
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,18:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">well bluejacket, gentics is the end all determining factor of what you can or cannot accomplish in bodybuilding, otherwise, everyone would be going pro...dont think so.</div>
from what ive read you are all set.

predetermined signif. genetic handicap...........check
diet is &quot;in check&quot; yet ineffective.......................check
working out HST style yet results are poor......check
anecdotal examples to refute all arguments....check

ok, everything is in place. you are clear to fail thru no fault of your own............proceed.

now i know im a smart ass, but all that aside, come on. people (and yourself) are quoting articles, FAQ, personal exper. as well as med. studies and research findings and your coming back with the statement &quot;ive done 3 or 4 cycles, lost count, of HST&quot;.................

WHAT!

sorry you lost me with that one. if your not sure how many cycles youve done (and it a choice btw 3 or 4!) that speaks volumes about how much your tracking your w/o's as well as diet etc. etc.

im just not sure what your after. it sounds like your not happy with the results from your w/o's and diet yet are very resistant to any change in those areas. i realize we are all beautiful and unique snowflakes but many of the struggles your having (genetics, fat gain, modest w/o results) are common to many here. hell, i still think 1/2 of this board is made up of folks who are better suited to things other than lifting. thats why we are here, you want the most which is hardest to get.

anyway, enough about all that.
i hope you find what your looking for

good luck
 
The argument for construction workers is well debated. Being a carpenter myself, I can say my forearms were huge before I started using air guns, but were they growing? NO!!! There was no periodization, no progression, no hypercaloric diet, no regular days off, etc.
Apples and Oranges. The trickiest thing about BB'ing is finding what works for you, and it helps getting advice from others who have knowledge that keeps you from things that definitely give poor results. One size does not fit all, but many things HINDER all. And when you work something until it no longer works, you make adjustments that create new responses. I disagree with anyone who says you can do the same thing forever and keep getting gains. That's stupid. But whatever we do, we need to do it consistently for a period of time, monitor it, and compare it to other things done in the same manner, or we know NOTHING.
 
bluejacket

I dont recall one study to end the argument that changing exercises was a bad idea. You read the inital quote right? Its why even the resident experts resorted to taking apart my statements, as I did theirs, just to make a point, it wasnt a definitive answer. So far its been opinion vs opinion. First you condemen my opinion of genetics, which really isnt an opinion at all, then you go on to say all bodybuilders deal with genetics, deal with what, the ghost, you just stated Im being unrealistic. Never stated my diet was ineffective, I stated im eating the right things and happen to be getting less than desirable results, is it the diet or the program, im just not sure at this time? You are right, somethings not right. Why I wasnt sure how many HST cycles Ive done, after the first one, I got sick half way through the second cycle, so I started over, same thing happened on the last one, so depending on how you look at it, it could be three or four cycles. I really wish you woulda read the part where I stated Im dong it by the book and giving it every opportunity, what more can I do? Im glad you felt the need to attack the insignificant aspects of this conversation, do you have anything to offer to the CNS or neural learning vs exercise changes and its affects on hypertrophy?



quadancer

If you had large forearms from doing carpentry as you suspect, yet say your forearms werent growing, so am I to assume that if you never raised a hammer in your life, your forearms woulda been large anyway?

Same could be said for a bike rider, low yet repetitive resistance = well defined legs. Quadancer, I think you were the one that pointed out that ice skaters had huge legs, same deal.

Now here is the kicker, this brings up what bodybuilder means to you and me, to me it means someone with a well defined body, I get the vibe to you it means a huge freak, obviously your not gonna get massive using a hammer/bike/skates but you will have definiton/probably size above average, depending on genetics, you could be borderline huge. I think there was a fellow HST'er just recently posted his legs were freaking huge from bike riding.



<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> I disagree with anyone who says you can do the same thing forever and keep getting gains. That's stupid.</div>

Why do I feel we have a communication problem?
 
I'm not sure on the construction worker theory either. But I can say this. I went to high school with a guy who, after graduation, went from an average build to quite muscular by doing nothing more than working doing building construction. His main job for the frist 4 years (when he developed all of his muscle) was doing nothing more than halling cinder blocks around to build basments for houses. Obviously he didn't look like a bodybuilder but he easily put on 30 pounds of LBM during those 4 years and never stepped foot in a weight room. And yes, he was untrained prior to working construction.

What does that mean? I have no idea because it is only one example of one person that I personally know. Would the same thing happen to me if I were to start working construction? Maybe, but probably not to the same extent that it did to him.
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,22:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Jan. 03 2007,21:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why do I change exercises if I know better....I think I said earlier because I get bored!
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If you consider what has been said to be truth, then your boredome isnt a reason, its an excuse.  As your selling yourself short of your potential by doing it your way.  
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I tried to lighten up the thread with a little humor.

You know keep it calm.

But if you simply think that I am selling myself short b/c I get bored, and also b/c I know better...then I guess you are RIGHT.

Then I had this long thread about things that most likely you are not doing but you know better.

Then I thought why waste my time on this.
 
Bike riding for big legs?  A pair of the largest thighs and calves I have ever seen in person are on a guy I know who works at his families party store.  What does he do to get his huge legs?  He rides a single speed mountain bike every friggin day!

Back in high school two other guys I knew with huge legs rode 10 speed bikes on hilly roads every day.

Will biking every day build big legs?  I would have to say yes if you are doing a lot of climbing.

That being said I don't know what would happen if they lifted weights too.  Their upper bodies are/were pretty average.  Would they have suffered leg development if they were bodybuilding and riding bikes?  That I don't know. What I do know is that &quot;the body becomes it's function&quot;.
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 03 2007,18:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">well bluejacket, gentics is the end all determining factor of what you can or cannot accomplish in bodybuilding, otherwise, everyone would be going pro...dont think so.


totentanz

I understand whats been said and being said, what you've failed to point out is the time in which it takes the muscle to adapt, or for the neaural learning to take place...I mean call me crazy but if you were gonna argue something, when my points 8 weeks is a good time to change exercises, I would imagine your arguement would be but it takes X amount of time to achieve neural learning...understand?  
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Its amazing how many answers a person gets within a single thread.  Everyone is against what I say, yet have their own OPINIONS which differ from each other.  I love forums.

One person says they hit a plateau and went to 5X5.

Next person says you never hit a plateau, eat more.

Next person says never change exercises, ever.

Next person states they change exercises but shouldnt.  Then if you know better, why do your own thing?

I love how everyone brings up SD, when the resident experts themselves, even the creator of HST states that a week is in no way enough time, as it takes much longer for a muscle to decondition, yet its the standard.  I even recall the resident experts suggesting that light exercises could even be done during the SD period.

Now someone is trying to tell me that soreness, which I would think would indicate muscle trama or tear, which I believe is the goal of hypertrophy, or microtrauma in the case of HST, is in no way and indication of muscle growth, as the muscle wont grow till the nervous system gets used to the weight.  OK  and why the hell not, I would imagine the body still want to repair the damage or build the muscle, in anticipation that this is the norm and the muscle will be affected again simillarly, which last I checked is hypertrophy.




Now here is my experience and why I have trouble agreeing with the CNS theory.

Im gonna use one lift as an example, there was a time I could bench X amount of weight, my upper body couldnt have look any more average, yet what I could bench was considered good for my overall build.  Fast forward, Im now doing HST using 1/3-2/3 the weight I could handle in that lift, yet my chest is more developed than ever....how can that be?  Im at the same bodyweight.  My CNS isnt special, im no exception, according to the CNS theory, I shouldnt be developing muscle, as I havent reached my potential strength.  


Just give me input on how long the CNS requires on average to adapt to a specific exercise, then I might be happier.  
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Since Ive been grossly misinformed, someone needs to modify the FAQ as it stands, the ony reference to muscle gains is this one:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/cgi-bin....;t=4638

Has nothing to say about neural learning, which I would imagine would be important to point out.  Mater of fact, punch in neural or CNS, select HST FAQ, click search, nothing comes up.</div>
Real quickly here

It's not that hypertrophy will only occur after neural gains, which BTW takes around 2 to 4 weeks depending on complexity, it's that once neural gains are maximized the only other ways to increase strength is either pennation or growth. So as a measuring stick it is better to use the same movements for a prolonged duration so you can be reasonably sure that the strength changes are coming from muscle growth and not just neural learning.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Real quickly here

It's not that hypertrophy will only occur after neural gains, which BTW takes around 2 to 4 weeks depending on complexity, it's that once neural gains are maximized the only other ways to increase strength is either pennation or growth. So as a measuring stick it is better to use the same movements for a prolonged duration so you can be reasonably sure that the strength changes are coming from muscle growth and not just neural learning. </div>

I love it when someone explains things so that a four year old can understand (heard that in a Denzel Washington movie). Thanks Dan, for the simple explanation!
 
<div>
(need2eat @ Jan. 04 2007,09:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">do you have anything to offer to the CNS or neural learning vs exercise changes and its affects on hypertrophy?</div>
see 1st post.

let me see if ive got the basic idea your trying to get across.

good gains 1st cycle. hit a wall (no improvement?) on second cycle. you feel your diet is &quot;in check&quot; b/c any more cals leads to too much fat gain. since diet is in order you feel NOT changing exer. each cycle (approx 8 weeks) is the culprit. most responders think the research (and their exper.) supports staying with exer. for longer than just a cycle but your experience to date has been different.

is that close? if so what now? as you stated it appears to be opinion vs opinion (depending on how you read the posted research) and nobody is convincing the other. whats your plan? are you planning to switch exer. each cycle and chart your progress? perhaps a few consecutive cycles of the same exer to see how progress compares?

if ive missed/misinterpreted something pls change or add it.

now about genetics....again.
i say genetics play a signifigant role in potential and you say they are the end all determining factor in what you can accomplish. fine, where does that leave us. no one has mentioned any quantifiable goal in these posts. we are not talking about a 400lb bench or 230lbs BW at 8% BF which are things that would be affected by genetic potential. im simply talking about gaining strength and muscle with each passing cycle as long as enough cals and protein are in place. how much you gain can be affected by genetic disposition but not the fact that its possible. im quite certain your not suggesting your personal genetic profile is such that it keeps you from gaining muscle or strength regardless of how good your diet or w/o is.......... right?
 
Yeesh, why can't you people read my mind?...
Anyway, my bad. A bricklayer has big shoulders, sometimes traps...mud finishers have biceps, carpenters get forearms and bikers get quads...to a point. At which it stops.
By adding BB'ing, you can bypass this 'sticking point' of growth.
Most of us realize:
It's easy to grow one bodypart. Not much nutrition needed either.
Trying to grow the whole body is an artform. This takes more calories.
Cardio added to this must be balanced, or muscle loss is the result.
Most guys on here are here for hypertrophy, and I assumed this was the main discussion point; still do.
Genetics: I only know that there are two separate parameters when discussing this:
1.) What you are like without being a BB'er.
2.) How far you can go when you are one.
I've never seen the argument settled as to wether or not we &quot;cheat&quot; our genetics or are merely continuing to reach the limits. I think you could only reach your limits in a laboratory setting; perfect diet, training, periodization. The rest of us hit or miss as best we can.
Need2eat can switch exersizes every cycle if wanted. Then it either works or doesn't. If he's smart, he does this until it needs to change to a longer duration or continues to keep changing to different things, hoping to find another that works. My experience with having done this was mostly that I had no idea what worked and what did not. The one thing I do know is that a couple of years of 3 sets of 8 going to failure will wreck your body and keep you on a painful plateau with frustration for dessert. I owned that t-shirt!
So I'm saying, maybe he's right, for himself in his situation, at this time, for now. It would short-circuit me if I did it.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Jan. 04 2007,18:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So I'm saying, maybe he's right, for himself in his situation, at this time, for now. It would short-circuit me if I did it.</div>
Obviously not, since he's getting crap for results, according to his own posts.

Oh wait, no, he IS getting results because his chest is more defined (a function of bodyfat, by the way, which is what I suggested) but wait, oh no, he isn't getting results because according to his post, he hasn't gained any weight (a function of diet, by the way, which is what I suggested) so... uh, who knows.

I guess I slightly misunderstood or misexplained the neural learning thing, but luckily Dan cleared that up.
 
Just to add my 2¢:

I've added 45 lbs or so over the last year all during HST. That's not to say that I wouldn't have gained significantly doing another type of training but it is interesting to note that gains had significantly slowed for me after doing HIT for the 3 months prior to my finding and starting HST.

I am interested in knowing what need2eat is lifting in some of the main compound lifts (ie. ATG squat, press, bench press, deadlift) and at what bodyweight? I think then it will be easier to see at what stage in his training need2eat falls.

Personally, I don't believe you need to change core exercises around much, if at all, however long you stay in the lifting game but, at advanced stages in a person's lifting career, extra assistance exercises might well be very useful (or even essential) to help continue progression in the core lifts. What do the strongest lifters in the world use in their training? Squats, deads, bench, chins, presses. Surprise, surprise!

Any kind of training will elicit growth in a person until the stimulus is adapted to. How much growth? It very much depends on the on the individual person and the stimulus. That's why some Tour De France riders have big legs and others smaller legs, yet they all do similar, brutal training.

So, more info please need2eat.
 
All I have ever done for thighs in the past 5 months is squats...and my thighs are growing faster than any other bodypart. They were small to begin with, last time I measured they were 24.5&quot; each which is not bad. I added over 1.5&quot; on each thigh doing only squats. How did this happen? My 5 rm max. for squats went from 150 lb.s to 300 lb.s in 5 months-DOUBLED....alot of neural gains along with some serious muscle hypertrophy. I just lift hard, progress the weight and eat like a pig.
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P.S.- I have no intention of doing anything other than squats and occasional deadlifting for my thighs..ever. The same thing for most of my other lifts.
 
<div>
(Lol @ Jan. 04 2007,20:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am interested in knowing what need2eat is lifting in some of the main compound lifts (ie. ATG squat, press, bench press, deadlift) and at what bodyweight? I think then it will be easier to see at what stage in his training need2eat falls.</div>
Completely agree.

I have been waiting for him to post this to.

Maybe this will give us a better understanding, but my guess is he is not as advanced as you would need to be to consider switching everything up.
 
<div>
(Lol @ Jan. 04 2007,20:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just to add my 2¢:

I've added 45 lbs or so over the last year all during HST. That's not to say that I wouldn't have gained significantly doing another type of training but it is interesting to note that gains had significantly slowed for me after doing HIT for the 3 months prior to my finding and starting HST.

I am interested in knowing what need2eat is lifting in some of the main compound lifts (ie. ATG squat, press, bench press, deadlift) and at what bodyweight? I think then it will be easier to see at what stage in his training need2eat falls.

Personally, I don't believe you need to change core exercises around much, if at all, however long you stay in the lifting game but, at advanced stages in a person's lifting career, extra assistance exercises might well be very useful (or even essential) to help continue progression in the core lifts. What do the strongest lifters in the world use in their training? Squats, deads, bench, chins, presses. Surprise, surprise!

Any kind of training will elicit growth in a person until the stimulus is adapted to. How much growth? It very much depends on the on the individual person and the stimulus. That's why some Tour De France riders have big legs and others smaller legs, yet they all do similar, brutal training.

So, more info please need2eat.</div>
Lol is THE example of gains on HST. He is strong as an ox and pretty darn big after only one year of HST. And from what I know he was fairly weak and small when he started. 45 lb.s in one year is unf*ckingbelievable....even if it isn't all muscle. GREAT JOB!!!
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(scientific muscle @ Jan. 05 2007,06:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Lol is THE example of gains on HST.  He is strong as an ox and pretty darn big after only one year of HST.  And from what I know he was fairly weak and small when he started.  45 lb.s in one year is unf*ckingbelievable....even if it isn't all muscle.  GREAT JOB!!!
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Ha! Only a very, very small Ox though! For me gains came early on and quite quickly once I switched to squats and deads as my main lifts and ate like it was my job (thanks for that tip Tot!). At 41, I am now larger and stronger than I have ever been.

Things have definitely slowed up now but I understand why and am now on the path of gradual improvement. Neural learning has happened to a greater degree although I have still been improving my squat technique over the last few months and still have technique changes to make in my deads. As Tot pointed out earlier in this thread, compounds are complicated lifts and it does take a fair while to learn to do them to the point where you are really able to synchronise all the muscle contractions required in perfect harmony.

Technique becomes more and more important the heavier you go. Having now read Starting Strength I think there are various things I can still do to improve my deadlifting and squatting. They may only allow me to add a few extra pounds to the bar but it has taught me that finding the most efficient 'groove' (where all muscles involved are working optimally) is not that straightforward (not for me anyway).

For me HST has been a really, really good way to cut short the time it takes to get from being a novice lifter to, I suppose, a highish-end intermediate lifter for most of my big compounds (at the end of last cycle I tried 450lb in my deads just for fun - the bar flew off the floor and then stuck. Lower back was the weak link plus I now know my technique was poor in one area). I still have a ways to go to reach my long-term goals but I have little doubt that I can use HST principles and time to get there.

I have decided to start the year with around a 3-month cut (There, I've gone and said it, so now I'll have to do it! Not looking forward to it.) but will attack my new lifting goals after that. If I can get to around 8% bf and keep my lifts as high as possible I will be very pleased. I won't be changing any exercises either but have started adding bench back in and will see if my shoulder holds up.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A bricklayer has big shoulders, sometimes traps...mud finishers have biceps, carpenters get forearms and bikers get quads...to a point. At which it stops.
By adding BB'ing, you can bypass this 'sticking point' of growth.</div>

Quad, a lot of this has to do with muscle fiber type too, doesn't it? Doesn't BB add muscle fiber type that the other daily activities do not?
 
Yes, and I believe a small amount of sarcoplasmic hypertrophy I've read a little about, but know even less. It was regarded as unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
 
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