Customizing HST

Discussion in 'General Training' started by proteus9, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. noobie

    noobie New Member

    i think that would be the same reason for doing burn sets. It's just another form of aiding hypertrophy. I think Dkm mentioned it in another thread where strain on a muscle and metabolic fatigue on a muscle are the crucial factors in muscle hypertrophy. The ways you create this environment are up to you as long as u can keep progressively loading. I think thats it?

    still noobin here

  2. vicious

    vicious New Member

    That's basically it. During 5s, the metabolic stress goes way, way down. The metabolic stress (MAPKerk1/2) aids in the nutrient partioning effect, as well as improving the muscle's nutrient transport network. Those with high metabolism, high insulin sentivity and/or a endurance-related athletic background probably do not need the extra work unless they go on a very high caloric/carb diet. Everybody else could really benefit from it.

    Most techniques can fit into either metabolic stress or mechanical strain. Strain techniques are the most important and require a progressive dynamic. Stress are secondary and do not require a progressive dynamic (though it can help.)

    They also share somewhat reciprocal relationships with diet. Increasing strain to induce more hypertrophy requires that you eat more protein and calories in general. That is, it follows the notion of "you eat according to the way you train." Whereas increasing stress is more about making your calories (particularly carbs) contribute toward gaining LBM rather than gaining fat. It follows the belief of "you train according to the way you eat." Together, you get the complete training-diet picture of the bulking cycle.

    Pulsing, burn sets, and cardio are metabolic stress techniques. Pulse stretches and loaded stretches are mechanical strain techniques.

    Static holds and partials can be assigned either way. With pressing movements, they are stress techniques. With pulling movements, they can be strain techniques.

  3. Nemesis7884

    Nemesis7884 New Member

    where can i get explanations of the used techniques? i read your posts at the begininng but still need some clarification...

    so you would just use these techniques during 5s?

    my problem is that if i wand to keep the same total volume (cluster style) during 5s this means 4 set of 5s what is allready pretty exhausting
  4. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Below are some cookie cutter templates to illustrate how the techniques can be used in a program. These examples are rather extreme.

    Cookie Cutter Routine #1 (Basic Upper Torso Specialization)

    Frequency: High to Very high (5x-12x/wk)
    Duration: 10 weeks (4 weeks of post-5s)
    Post-WO Cardio: optional but recommended. Add during 10s (5-10 minutes HIIT or 20-30 minutes steady state)
    SD: 17-21 days.
    Diet: A lot. :D Be very, very aggressive with post-WO carbs if you add cardio. Try out the vinegar. An earlier post offers one hypothetical bulking scheme to approach a program like this. (Hint: 2*BW protein)

    Leg Press
    Leg Curl
    Dip (cluster++)
    Deadlift (cluster++)
    DB Bent Over Row
    DB Incline Press
    DB Upright Row

    1) One-two work sets. Second set may be pre-terminated or clustered
    2) Add 15s for each movement starting with 5s and post-5s
    3) During post-5s, switch to negatives. For items marked with (cluster++), switch to clustering and shoot for an increment per week
    4) Extend post-5s for another 2 weeks. Thus would make it a ten week long program.
    5) Post-WO cardio

    Stretch Point
    Incline bench, deep DB fly
    DB Skullcrushers
    Incline bench, DB bicep curl

    1) One or two work sets
    2) Add stretch point movements during 10s
    3) Add LS during 5s
    4) See notes in previous threads on accentuating stretch
    5) Use compound-isolation technique and/or clustering when approaching maxes

    Peak Contraction
    Pec dec or machine fly
    Tricep pushdown or extension machine
    Bicep machine

    1) One work set
    2) 10-15 Pulses
    3) When you feel it's "easier", progress by increasing # of pulses and/or weight
  5. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Cookie Cutter Routine #1 (Big Four Oriented)

    Frequency: Normal to High (3x-6x)
    Duration: 8-14 weeks
    Post-WO Cardio: highly recommended. Add during 10s (5-10 minutes HIIT or 20-30 minutes steady state)
    SD: 14-21 days

    Dip or bench
    Row movements

    Cluster structure
    1) Two weeks of normal 15s, the rest of the cycle is done cluster style
    2) Descending density. That is, start with short rest periods. Then increase rest time for each cluster, but as little as necessary.
    3) 10s = 20-30 target reps, 3-5 rep clusters, 15-30 second starting rest period.
    4) 5s and post 5s =10-15 target reps with 1-3 rep clusters, 5-15 second starting rest period.
    5) 15 rep burn set starting with 5s.

    1) Shoot for one increment per week for 2 weeks.
    2) Switch to strong-range partials for row movements and chins and make another 2 or 3 increments
    3) LS: For dip, hold at very bottom for 45-90 seconds. Cave shoulder blades in. Be mindful of rotator cuff.
    4) PS: For chin and row movements, add 10-15 pulse stretches (this is not the same thing as pulsing) after work sets.
    5) If you're interested in strength, switch to a PL-style routine or one of the HST/strength fusion programs in previous thread.
  6. ttboyy2k

    ttboyy2k New Member

    Should you start with negative training after you reach your ceiling with partial rep training? Also, what kind of volume (cluster reps/sets) do you try to acheive while doing negatives? Should you still use the 5% increment recommendation during negatives. Maybe start with your 2 rep concentric max on all exercises and then every workout progress up and beyond your 1 rep max maintaining constant volume until your joints scream uncle?
  7. vicious

    vicious New Member

    I basically see negatives as a way of extending the cycle. If you have access to negatives, then I feel it's an easier alternative than cluster training. If you do one increment every 5-7days (or every 2-3 sessions per 3x-a-week schedule), you'll have 4-6 increments (5% of 5RM) over the 4 week period. That approaches your 110-120% of 1RM, but it's more of a theoretical ideal. As you suspected, your joints will probably tell you to stop before you actually hit your practical limit. Your post-5s period may be only 3 weeks or so.

    Cluster with 5-10 reps. Probably closer to 5 reps as you hit the very upper limit of what you can actually do. Negative-heavy loaded stretches can be very hard.

    In this approach, you can kind of see the first 4 weeks of the HST cycle as "prep" for the next 6 weeks of insanity. ;)

  8. Nemesis7884

    Nemesis7884 New Member

    - you mentioned of increasing volume as a way to increase metabolic stress...would a maintenance of the volume when going from 10s to 5s (eg. same total reps) be a solution due to increase work load

    - why do you recommend post workout cardio, i have never seen anyone doing this?

    - would you just add stress techniques to 5s and beyond?
  9. vicious

    vicious New Member

    That could work, but more or less, you increase volume with your main work sets to create more mechanical strain, not metabolic stress. These metabolic stress techniques are about creating a lot of burn without killing your CNS. A pulse set lasts about 15-20 seconds -- the neural stress is significant but not severe -- but the burn is ridiculous.

    Some of this reflects my philosophy with workout design. You want to first make tweaks to increase mechanical strain. That is most important and this can get quite exotic. Having done that, then you look at tweaks toward increasing metabolic stress. When you feel you have a reasonable setup, then you look at increasing the overall volume to bring your "bottom line" up.
    A person whom I was chatting with, had been doing cluster-style HST. The results were good, but he felt his arms were lagging behind, even though he was doing 20-30 reps at the heavy range and feeling tight after every session. When he added pulses, his arm size came up almost immediately, which suggested his arms weren't optimally storing glyocgen. And it wasn't doing that, because he wasn't sending a strong enough metabolic signal to his arms.

    This above example is not unusual for trainees who rely on a cluster-oriented routine, as well as those doing 5s and especially negatives. Low density clustering and eccentric-only work lowers both the CNS and metabolic stress of your total reps. The TUL of 5s may not be long enough to elicit a significant burn on the muscle. Thus you need to get that metabolic stress somewhere else, and that is why a lot of people now add that burn set and/or pulses.

    Increases insulin sensitivity, appetite/metabolism and facilitates glycogen uptake. The cardio should be relatively brief (25-30 minutes steady state or 5-10 minutes HIIT) as to avoid an overtly catabolic response from your body. And this should be coupled with an aggressive post-WO carb strategy. This is more recommended for people with low-to-normal metabolism in order to enable a clean bulk.

    Yes. You can add cardio during 10s or even 15s, but all of the other techniques are added 5s and beyond.

  10. Nemesis7884

    Nemesis7884 New Member

    you also mentioned that increasing the time of the concentric rep part as a method to increase strain...

    don't you think this is a pretty bad possibilty, this will only kill strength and cause fatigue, moreover since exccentric you bring up more strenght you are able to lower the weight slowler therefore more tul therefore more stimuli
  11. vicious

    vicious New Member

    You can increase the concetric rep portion to increase total metabolic stress.  That is the basis for modalities like superslow.  For example, a person can do a 15-rep burn set, start very slow, and speed up as it gets harder and harder.  Most of us instinctively do this anyway.
    Slowing down the eccentric portion is really about spending more time with the most productive portion of the movement.  The ideal cadence is to actually slow down as you reach the bottom.

    I had problems following the train of thought, so I'll give an open-ended take.  Basically, all metabolic stress techniques generate both metabolic and neural fatigue.  The advantage to these techniques, especially pulsing, is that you generate much more of the former than the latter.  BUT, the caveat remains that you still generate potentially significant CNS fatigue.  The progressive element with metabolic stress techniques *must* be conservative.

    It's crucial that a person aggressively eats carbs after their workout in order to restock their glycogen stores.  Conversely, their immediate and daily carb intake would be put to better use from using these techniques.

    For a person who's already on a high-set HST program, they may have to compromise and drop a set in order to add these techniques.  That compromise between mechanical strain and metabolic stress is IMO worth it if you have a low-to-average metabolism; it helps to facilitate a clean bulk. For a guy who has problems putting on weight while eating copious amount of food, these techniques probably should be avoided.

  12. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    sorry to join the party late, but Jules, is it necessary to do the metabolic stuff the same day as the strain-related stuff? For example, I'm not doing HST, I'm lifting 5x5 on Monday and Friday. Could I only add burn sets on Wednesday, or is there something particularly important about doing the metabolic stuff directly after the straining stuff?
  13. vicious

    vicious New Member

    If you do them by yourself, you could add steady state cardio afterwards (30 minutes roughly), and make that Wednesday your carb refeed day.  In that case, be very generous with your total carb intake that day.

    Followin pulse workout, in addition to your burn set versions of your 5x5 program, would do very nicely -->

    Leg extension
    Leg Curl
    Nelson situps, pulse-style
    Machine pullover

  14. Bob Evans

    Bob Evans Member

    Not sure what I should call you now --- Professor ?

    Vicious, You said
    Which thread should I look in..... Sorry this may be a repeat question. I just get confused on where to look.

  15. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Ah, I'm sorry. I meant (I think) page 2 or 3 of this thread where I yap about how to do skulls, flies, calf raises, etc. for maximum stretch.

  16. Bob Evans

    Bob Evans Member

    O.K. I am doing loaded stretchs for my biceps and can really feel it afterward -- I just hand for a minute at a time -- hope to work up to 2 mins but it "horts" --I feel the doms afterwards -- have not had that in a long time.

    With the loaded stretch flat bench flys -- I tend to keep my elbow bent a little -- Is that O.K.:confused:. It seems scarry to keep my elbows locked straight -- but I will try it if you say that is the way to go.

  17. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Hmm. . . 2 minutes? Are you using negative-size loads with them? That's interesting!

    Yeah, I never lock out my elbows either. Actually, what I do is arc my back a little when I hold them.

  18. Bob Evans

    Bob Evans Member

    I guess a typo added to the confusion -- I ment to say I hang (bodyweight) for a about a minute 10 sec. bw = 210#. When I was younger I used to hang for two mins with my legs straight out. So a hang and a static leg raise. Talk about painfull !!!! But great for abs. So I can inch it back up to the two min mark. (or at least try) Then I shrug with about 300 and hold that for about an extra 20 sec. palms out grip. And I hold a 55lb weight on the preacher bench with my elbo locked (hyper extended) for about 30 secs. ---- Am I on the right track coach?? My bis certainly feel it.

  19. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Yikes, your biceps better feel that. :D
    I used to hang from a bar to work on stretching out my lower back (which included swinging from a bar, that increases the effective force pulling on you.) I corresponded with a mate who was doing a similar thing, and we both noted that our abs/lats/biceps were growing. In both of our cases, we weren't using extra weight or doing proper static holds per se, but for some strange reason, hanging for a long, long time magically caused hypertrophy.

    I learned about fascia stretching during 1995-96 or so. A really great training site called "Big Boys" covered various schools of thought, and one of the trainers was really into Parillo's techniques. (Great site: another guy was a POF guru who directly worked with Steve Holman. Yet another guy was a fanatic of OTS/BBB-style training. I stole stuff from all three schools for this thread. ;) ) But not until 2000-01 or so, did I actually gained some practical experience with doing these stretches. Even so, I didn't put my thought into using stretch-based techniques (or, rather, techniques derived from flexibility training protocol) to enhance growth. It just seemed like a weird side effect or something.

    I think what you're doing will work well, but I would perhaps ante it further and experiment with pulse-stretches. Pulse stretching, esp. ultra-heavy PS, is perhaps the most effective (and dangerous) technique to induce massive amounts of strain. In your case, try out PSing the hang and shrug (also look down while doing this . . . enhances the stretch on the traps.) Maybe next cycle, try that. :)

  20. Lance

    Lance New Member

    So pulse stretching gives more strain then loaded stretches, eh?

    The only exercise i remember Vicious saying about those was chins i believe. I think it means after your heavy sets (these are post-5's techniques by the way) you go for the loaded stretch but kind bounch up and dow to have gravity help create more strain. I guess when you come down from the pulse, you'll be at a pretty hardcore stretch, and it's repeated several times, like pulses i belive. ~15 reps.

    BTW, just b/c the name says pulses in it, i'm wondering if it can be counted as your metabolic work for that muscle?

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